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Post by Matthew on Aug 29, 2014 20:32:32 GMT
Benjamin, and I have repeatedly made the point that Paul is not just there in 2 Thessalonians 1. You seem to be overlooking the fact the Paul said he was expecting to receive relief from persecution at this coming. A coming back with Jesus at Armageddon would explain his mere presence there (because all of the saints will be with Jesus then, making them present at both a pre-trib rapture and the 2nd coming) but that explanation does not explain how Paul could receive relief from persecution at Armageddon. Under the pre-trib doctrine, Paul would have been in heaven; with Jesus; at the marriage supper of the Lamb; in the rest you described; etc.. for 7 years when Armageddon happens.
So how is it possible for Paul to be there like this; under persecution; on the earth; looking for relief; etc....It is right there in verse 7. How is this possible if a pre-trib rapture? And the language is not generic. Paul said himself; the Thessalonians; the believers in the first century; in Thessalonica; etc... would receive relief at this coming. Is 2 Thessalonians 1 a pre-trib description? I keep saying this, over and over, hoping that you will see it, but honestly I don't know a clearer way to say it except for you to go read it again yourself. Read it a few times. Meditate on it for awhile.
This is why I am saying that the language that Paul used leaves no wiggle room. Paul himself expected to be on earth; under persecution; at this coming (2 Thessalonians 1) This cannot be Armageddon like you are interpreting it. Paul should be gone by then. This is the beginning of the day of the Lord. It is an exact parallel of 1 Thessalonians 4 AND 5. Same author, same audience, same story, same event........The day of the Lord, after the sixth seal. Here is Paul going into it, and if Paul, also the church. This is the day that the resurrection/rapture (the rest you described) takes place.
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Aug 29, 2014 21:36:53 GMT
Matthew, you have attempted to disprove a pre-tribulation rapture using only a couple of verses. Morningstar, Benjamin and Shiloh have proved a pre-tribulation rapture using many verses throughout the whole Bible. The problem with seeing a verse that seems to contradict something in the rest of the Bible and then saying that that contradiction must be disproved only using the book in which it was found is that this logic is not correct. The Bible was given to us as a whole, 66 books which taken together tell us the whole story that God wanted us to know. In the very book that you were using to refute the pre-tribulation rapture, 1 Thessalonians 5:1&2, Paul tells us that the Thessalonians already knew full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. How did they already know that. Paul is building on what they already knew. Things they learned from prophets such as Ezekiel and Daniel.
I must admit that I did not read all of what you have posted here because starting with faulty logic and then building on it does not lead to the truth. I suggest a good understanding of all of the Bible before trying to prove or disprove something.
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Post by Matthew on Aug 29, 2014 22:02:37 GMT
Ok guys, I give up. You guys are too given to your doctrine that you won't even acknowledge a contradiction. I have shown the Apostle Paul, on earth, undergoing persecution where you say it is a reference to Armageddon (which contradicts your doctrine) (2 Thessalonians 1) I have shown that both the Apostle Paul and the Thessalonians are in both 1 Thessalonians 4 AND 5 and 2 Thessalonians 1 AND 2, but you guys continue to see one as a pre-trib rapture and the other as Armageddon (which is a contradiction) I have shown where you have multiple definitions for the same term and are using that term interchangeably (the day of the Lord, after the sixth seal; the latter half of Daniel's 70th week, but at the first seal in 1 Thessalonians 5) (Error; equivocation) And I have repeatably said that you cannot make an internal contradiction true by pointing to external sources, but you guys continue to tell me that I cannot build a doctrine out of a single book, as if that's what I am trying to do. I AM NOT BUILDING A DOCTRINE; I AM SHOWING YOU WHERE YOUR DOCTRINE CANNOT BE TRUE. No contradiction is true, and the way you read the Thessalonian letters is a contradiction. Spin it, take only half of it, misquote it, or whatever, but both Paul and the Thessalonians are in 1 Thessalonians 4 AND 5 AND 2 Thessalonians 1 AND 2. These cannot be two different events where the first one in time removes the group from the earth.
I don't know what else to do. I've pointed to it every way I can think of. I guess we'll see when it happens. I'll welcome a pre-trib rapture; you guys don't fall away no matter what. Your brother in Jesus - Matthew.
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Post by Benjamin on Aug 29, 2014 22:19:46 GMT
Ok guys, I give up. You guys are too given to your doctrine that you won't even acknowledge a contradiction. I have shown the Apostle Paul, on earth, undergoing persecution where you say it is a reference to Armageddon (which contradicts your doctrine) (2 Thessalonians 1) I have shown that both the Apostle Paul and the Thessalonians are in both 1 Thessalonians 4 AND 5 and 2 Thessalonians 1 AND 2, but you guys continue to see one as a pre-trib rapture and the other as Armageddon (which is a contradiction) I have shown where you have multiple definitions for the same term and are using that term interchangeably (the day of the Lord, after the sixth seal; the latter half of Daniel's 70th week, but at the first seal in 1 Thessalonians 5) (Error; equivocation) And I have repeatably said that you cannot make an internal contradiction true by pointing to external sources, but you guys continue to tell me that I cannot build a doctrine out of a single book, as if that's what I am trying to do. I AM NOT BUILDING A DOCTRINE; I AM SHOWING YOU WHERE YOUR DOCTRINE CANNOT BE TRUE. No contradiction is true, and the way you read the Thessalonian letters is a contradiction. Spin it, take only half of it, misquote it, or whatever, but both Paul and the Thessalonians are in 1 Thessalonians 4 AND 5 AND 2 Thessalonians 1 AND 2. These cannot be two different events where the first one in time removes the group from the earth. I don't know what else to do. I've pointed to it every way I can think of. I guess we'll see when it happens. I'll welcome a pre-trib rapture; you guys don't fall away no matter what. Your brother in Jesus - Matthew. You're still repeating the same falsehoods that you've had all the way through this thread - things that have already been addressed. 1) You keep talking about "relief from persecution", but that's not what the text says. It says "rest"; a rest that, at the 2nd Coming, is intrinsically tied to Christ as King in Israel (c.f. Hebrews). 2) The phrase "Day of the Lord" is used in one sense only - as the latter half of Daniel's 70th week. It is YOUR assumption that it's at the first seal in 1 Thessalonians 5, not ours. 3) As in all things, we must follow "the whole counsel of God". I've shown you repeatedly from multiple books in Scripture that there is no logical contradiction in the pre-tribulation view. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it (that's up to you), but the view in and of itself is not demonstrably false, either here in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, or elsewhere. 4) I have also shown you repeatedly that Paul will absolutely be present at both the events of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2. In fact, this is what every single pre-tribulation teacher would propose, and no doubt many have done so more logically and succinctly than I. Beyond those things, we haven't even begun to address the numerous other issues you have with applying rapture verses within the Tribulation. We haven't addressed the fact that Paul says in these very verses that the Thessalonians were "not appointed to wrath", and yet the Tribulation is absolutely about God's wrath "The day of His wrath has come... and who can stand?". We haven't talked about Zephaniah, who says: We haven't talked about Enoch, who is a type of the Church, a prefiguration of the Rapture in text; We haven't talked about the golden lampstands of Revelation, who are present on earth in chapters 2-3, present with Christ in chapter 4, in heaven, PRIOR to the Tribulation (lampstands that are identified by Christ Himself as the church); We haven't looked at one of the great Rapture passages in Scripture, 1 Corinthians 15; We haven't looked at the numerous passages that talk about the Coming of the Bridegroom for His bride (why would Jesus beat up His bride before the wedding?)... and much, much more. Ultimately, we can take a single passage and examine it all we like. I see no inherent contradiction in 1 and 2 Thessalonians and a pre-tribulational view of the Rapture. I see contradiction in your logic and the Rapture, but I don't believe you're following the literal meaning of the text, but rather focusing on what you think we believe. I'll leave this here, as I think the discussion has become unproductive - but I'll let Chuck Missler sum up the rest: ------------------ And finally, Matthew... [with my mod hat on] The fact that you've created your own thread, and contributed nowhere else here, makes it seem like you came here not with fellowship in mind, nor with seeking to follow Christ with us, but to push a viewpoint. Other content online, including your Youtube videos, suggest that this is 'what you do', and that you didn't come here with a genuine interest in having fellowship with us at all, but to 'correct our error'.
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with spirited debate, but if that's all you have, then you've got a serious problem... and if your convictions aren't pushing you (or more importantly, if you think you're here to teach us, pushing others) toward Christ, then what good are they? We've talked about the things of God, but I don't see a lot of edification happening here, and that's a sad thing. If you genuinely felt we were wrong, the least you could have done was to encourage us to prayerfully, honestly seek the Lord's light on these passages, and encourage us to delve deeper into His Word. You didn't. I'd like to encourage you to do exactly that. If this is such a key conflict for you, take it to the Lord and seek His blessing. Seek His Holy Spirit's guidance in interpretation and devour God's Word like a man in a desert seeking Living Water.
I'd encourage you to take some time to look at all the other amazing content on this forum. Yes, we're a pre-trib rapture community... but our faith is in Christ. We weren't saved by the Rapture, the Rapture didn't die on a cross for us, and ultimately it's not even the Rapture that will be calling us out of here. It will be our beloved. I'd like to suggest that if you plan to 'minister' in this way in future, that you take the time to think very carefully about how best to go about that. We're not here on earth to fight over doctrine, no matter how convinced we are of our own correctness; we're here to love our King, and to live for Him.
I hope to see you around the forums. There are lots of great conversations happening on here, and a wonderful group of people who genuinely love the Lord. I'm sure you have a lot to contribute, and I'd love to see you do so.
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