|
Post by shiloh on Mar 8, 2015 13:10:40 GMT
So..... I was thinking about this last night and I can't find a good answer. Many believe that Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses (I agree) because Moses was seen on the mount of Transfiguration. Not only that, but the Lord Himself buried Moses and no one knows where. We definitely know that Elijah is one of them. Others believe that the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch b/c both were raptured and therefore did not die. If Moses is one of the two, then how do we reconcile that with
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 8, 2015 13:12:01 GMT
I forgot to add, that means poor Moses would have to die twice.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 8, 2015 18:09:54 GMT
Shiloh i'm anxious to what everyone else says too. I believe it's Enoch and Elijah becuz they went before they died. They have yet to 'taste' death so I firmly believe they were taken in order to come back to finish what they were born to do. When Moses was seen at the Mount I believe he was there as a fuller meaning of what was going on. You know, how we share when we see a new, deeper meaning in scripture, such as the topic recently of Paul...and how the 3 days, 3 yrs were a deeper meaning to the scripture re: his salvation, how he was taught by the Lord the first 3 yrs, which shows he was taught by the Lord the same way the apostles were, etc. I think by Moses being mentioned as one who was there has a deeper meaning...maybe to show the law was fulfilled, being on a mount once again may be symbolic of that? Not sure but I do think if it were discussed we would see the fuller meaning and purpose of Moses being used. Elijah makes sense as far as the Holy Spirit now being poured out freely in the way that Elijah was a representation of. But as it goes, I am sticking with Elijah and Enoch who still have work to do and were set apart to in order to finish it.
|
|
|
Post by elizabeth on Mar 8, 2015 22:26:00 GMT
I go with Elijah and Moses because Enoch was not even Jewish. This time is referred to as Jacobs trouble, so the primary emphasis is on the Jews.
But when did the Jewish race begin. . . I think with Jacob and his 12 sons, but I'm not 100 percent sure. I do know the Jewish race did not begin before Abraham, thus Enoch was not Jewish.
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 8, 2015 23:01:22 GMT
Enoch is a type of the Church, too... not a type of Israel - so he doesn't fit the prophetic pattern as a Witness.
I side with Moses also. The verse you've quoted ("it is determined to man once to die, and after that, to face judgment") is a general Biblical principle; that doesn't prevent the Lord from using Moses as one of the witnesses. Contextually, Paul is talking about the fact that we have just one life, and that without Christ, it will end in sorrow and pain - more than that, in hell.
So... God can absolutely use Moses. There are plenty of examples in Scripture where the Lord 'violates' His own laws. He sent ravens to Eljah, he used Deborah to free Israel, He used a false prophet to bring a real blessing, and so on... so I don't believe that verse prevents Moses from being a witness at all.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 9, 2015 1:28:16 GMT
YEAH Shiloh, Contextually.....hahahahaha - that just sounds over my head! You guys have some very good points! I think I'll look deeper into this, cuz it makes one wonder. I get what you mean about Enoch but if it's not him, why did he get taken w/o death? There's gotta be something with that, just has to be a reason. That's why I always believed he was one of the 2.
|
|
|
Post by peaceinthestorm on Mar 9, 2015 2:30:23 GMT
Gr8ful, I think the answer to your question about Enoch is partly in what Benjamin said. "Enoch is a type of the Church". A picture of what will happen to the church. The church walks with God and then will be no more because we will be taken.
|
|
Me
Numbers' Donkey
Posts: 151
|
Post by Me on Mar 9, 2015 3:05:20 GMT
Well let me point out Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha died TWICE.
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 9, 2015 3:16:15 GMT
Yeah, I thought about that too, Melissa. Lazarus was a close friend of Jesus and lived very long after being risen from the dead.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 9, 2015 3:40:46 GMT
Peace, hmmmm, okay I get that...but I guess i'm still not sure if that's it. IDK it would seem that would be explained somewhat if that was the case, but then again it doesn't necessarily have to be explained....? I guess it seems to be there is more to his not dying that i'm just not quite getting, but I also like that because it makes me want to look deeper and I always end up learning so much more when I 'dig into' something!
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 9, 2015 3:52:33 GMT
Uh Oh. Looks like I opened up a can of worms from just wondering. We're not going to have to be thinking about it anyway b/c we'll be out of here. It was just a train of thought I had at the time.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 9, 2015 16:26:10 GMT
No, missy, not a can of worms to me, it's a great opportunity for me to dig deeper! Which I love when a topic has me doing that! I gotta say, I have never really gotten that deep in to this subject before, so I'm not sure what to say. My original thoughts weren't terribly studied more like made sense to me. SO it's time for me to find out more about it and not just take it for granted. I appreciate you bringing this up, it's a very good thing to ponder and pray about! A chance to learn something new! And Melissa brought up an interesting point re: Lazarus dying twice. I totally appreciate what Peace said to help me w/what Benjamin was referring to. I'm not disagreeing w/anyone, just not ready to say oh that it just yet since I haven't looked into completely myself. I hope that makes sense. Bottom line, it's a good thing we're discussing here.
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 9, 2015 16:36:23 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 9, 2015 17:08:48 GMT
Oh that is a good article, thanks! I am going to look more into this this week. What I think is 'tripping' me up the most is Enoch and if he's not one of the 2, was his being taken up an analogy of sorts or is there something more to it? Enoch is an 'oddity' to me anyway. For one, the fact that he didn't die, but also that it appears Jude and in another part Jesus have quoted him but the Book of Enoch is not in the Bible. Yes, I know God made the Bible complete, I fully understand and believe that w/o question! Yet there's a part of me that does question if the book was left out, not by God but by man when choosing which books would or wouldn't be accepted. if Enoch is quoted in our bible doesn't it show that they took him too as Godly man, a prophet or at least someone worthy of quoting? Honestly I don't mention this much becuz people get kinda weird that I would even wonder such things! But God knows my heart and that I'm NOT trying to deceive or be deceived, just one of those things I have not fully reconciled in my mind. That's all. It does not mean for a minute that I doubt anything, I just honestly wonder about it, that's all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 17:42:49 GMT
Ya know,on the Mount of Transfiguration,John recognized both Moses and Elijah. In Revelation,it's just two witnesses.Might not be either.Just something to think about?
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 9, 2015 19:35:00 GMT
hmmm dpr, interesting point! BTW, how have you been? I was wondering where you are!
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 9, 2015 20:37:04 GMT
I see what you're saying there and agree with your whole post.
dpr, my husband said the same thing to me that you mentioned when I was talking to him about this yesterday.
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 10, 2015 0:43:13 GMT
Oh that is a good article, thanks! I am going to look more into this this week. What I think is 'tripping' me up the most is Enoch and if he's not one of the 2, was his being taken up an analogy of sorts or is there something more to it? Enoch is an 'oddity' to me anyway. For one, the fact that he didn't die, but also that it appears Jude and in another part Jesus have quoted him but the Book of Enoch is not in the Bible. Yes, I know God made the Bible complete, I fully understand and believe that w/o question! Yet there's a part of me that does question if the book was left out, not by God but by man when choosing which books would or wouldn't be accepted. if Enoch is quoted in our bible doesn't it show that they took him too as Godly man, a prophet or at least someone worthy of quoting? Honestly I don't mention this much becuz people get kinda weird that I would even wonder such things! But God knows my heart and that I'm NOT trying to deceive or be deceived, just one of those things I have not fully reconciled in my mind. That's all. It does not mean for a minute that I doubt anything, I just honestly wonder about it, that's all. I think the fact that Enoch is barely mentioned is actually quite significant. Enoch isn't the high point of the Old Testament; he barely rates as a footnote. All we know is that he "walked with the Lord; then the Lord took him, and he was no more". Isn't this EXACTLY the nature of the Church? The prophets didn't see the Church coming. We were never part of the broader picture, as far as they were concerned. We are a 2000-year long footnote in the context of Israel, and, like Enoch, we "walk with the Lord", and the Lord will take us, and we will be no more (as the Holy Spirit's role will change, and salvation will once again be under the OT system of faith and observation of the law). Now, when it comes to Jude quoting Enoch, there are a few things that you need to consider: 1) the Book of Enoch isn't one book - it's actually composed of 11 texts, all of which are united under that name. Only the first, which is called 'The Book of Enoch', can lay any kind of claim to authenticity (the later books are all far too late, historically, to have been written by Enoch). It is this first book that Jude quotes. 2) There are many other quotes in Scripture from extrabiblical sources; this doesn't indicate that the books themselves are inspired, but simply that the quotes themselves are true, and that the Holy Spirit has chosen to use them. Let me give you an example. In 1 Corinthians 15:33, Paul quotes Euripides (a Greek writer (or tragedian)), saying "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." This doesn't mean that Euripides' plays are inerrant, but simply that the Holy Spirit saw fit to use (and thus agree with) that particular quote. 3) Now, with each of the first two points in mind - if you sit down and read through the Book of Enoch, you'll see why it wasn't included. The first book is... relatively comparable with Scripture. I don't believe that it's inspired (it doesn't have the right 'voice' to it, which suggests to me that the Holy Spirit was not the author), but it's not openly in conflict with it either. Latter books, however... well, they diverge pretty radically. There are numerous other books that are quoted or mentioned in Scripture that are likewise uninspired, but nonetheless used by the Holy Spirit. The conclusion, logically, is that the Holy Spirit can and does use whatever He determines useful in reaching people, and communicating their great need for Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 2:14:22 GMT
Yes I understand what you are saying. I truly do. I did read a little bit once from the book of Enoch and it was 'different' yet was talking about Spiritual warfare in the section I read. There was something 'off' I totally agree and I didn't feel it was say as inspired as I thought it might be. BUT, at the same time, there's something about him I have yet to reconcile in my mind for some reason.
Genesis 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
~~~ The points that stick out to me are he was the father of Methuselah, grandfather of Noah, lived 365 yrs., he walked faithfully w/God and the Lord made it a point to give him a 'shout out' becuz of it. As well as to let it be known he was taken away and no more. I believe if it's mentioned in the Bible there is a reason for it being mentioned. Does any of these have any deeper meanings that I'm not seeing? And in Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Again he is mentioned along w/the Who's Who crowd, such as Noah, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Abraham.....seems to me he was considered among the greats and considered significant. But for the life of me I truly feel I am missing something when it comes to him. IDK again, it's just a subject I haven't completely finished up yet. I tend to push it back in my mind for awhile so as not to get caught up into it too much, I know how easily I can get distracted w/stuff! The timing on this is just right tho becuz last wk I had asked the woman who leads bible study if after we are finished w/our revelation study could we do a QandA type thing for a few wks. I said there was a few subjects i'd like to discuss get some input on them. This is one of the ones I was talking about. So pls I hope no one feels for a minute that I am debating anything, because I'm not. I am discussing it, hearing you all out and including it in w/my digging and find all your thoughts and comments extremely good and very helpful!
I appreciate every bit of info you all are giving me to think about and consider. The other 'issue' I have is regarding I Samuel 28:3-24. I will leave it at that. Thank you Shiloh for bringing this up - I love that you all have such good Godly thoughts and are so helpful! Do any of you have a subject that you know there's more to it but you just haven't grasped it yet? If so, pls share, unless this just makes me a nerd becuz I love these kinds of discussions! PS-yes I am making up for all the times I couldn't post funny pics too!
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 10, 2015 2:23:38 GMT
I don't think anyone would get the impression that you're arguing. It's an interesting topic - and as you say, there are definitely points in Scripture that 'leave you wanting', which is a prompt to dig deeper and find out more. The Rabbis actually have a term for that - it's called a 'Remmez'. Any time you find a seemingly insignificant detail that seems out of place, it's really a giant sign that says "DIG HERE".
Regarding Saul... that's absolutely worth discussing, would you make a thread on that, so we don't derail this one?
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 3:32:39 GMT
Really?! Wow! I tiptoe around these 2 topics becuz people get kinda judgemental about them and think that I am walking on dangerous ground or something. Which I'm not, like you said, I am wanting more and I truly believe it is the Lord prompting me w/dig deeper, dig here as you said! So wow, if you don't mind and aren't 'afraid' of the topic I would love to discuss that too! You have no idea how refreshing it is to have a place to discuss this stuff w/o feeling like I'm dabbling in some weird stuff! My goodness, it's in the Bible for a reason, so what's the reason, that's all i'm trying to find out! Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to do so!
|
|
|
Post by morningstar on Mar 10, 2015 3:51:08 GMT
Oh that is a good article, thanks! I am going to look more into this this week. What I think is 'tripping' me up the most is Enoch and if he's not one of the 2, was his being taken up an analogy of sorts or is there something more to it? Enoch is an 'oddity' to me anyway. For one, the fact that he didn't die, but also that it appears Jude and in another part Jesus have quoted him but the Book of Enoch is not in the Bible. Yes, I know God made the Bible complete, I fully understand and believe that w/o question! Yet there's a part of me that does question if the book was left out, not by God but by man when choosing which books would or wouldn't be accepted. if Enoch is quoted in our bible doesn't it show that they took him too as Godly man, a prophet or at least someone worthy of quoting? Honestly I don't mention this much becuz people get kinda weird that I would even wonder such things! But God knows my heart and that I'm NOT trying to deceive or be deceived, just one of those things I have not fully reconciled in my mind. That's all. It does not mean for a minute that I doubt anything, I just honestly wonder about it, that's all. Gr8tful you have good bonafide questions, and sometimes it's good to voice them and get peoples input on them. I have to agree with Benjamin, Shiloh and Liz...Moses & Elijah makes the most sense as to the characteristics of the Two Witnesses because they are both Jewish and will be witnessing also to the Jews, Enoch as already mentioned had a purpose...he was a type of the Church being translated before Judgment fell in the days of Noah, whereas the Church also will be raptured prior to the tribulation. I don't hold to the writings of the book of Enoch and I think Jack Kelley explains it best. Jack Kelley: Q. Do you believe in the book of Enoch? Do you think Enoch really wrote it? A. Most scholars believe that the Book of Enoch was written by someone else, long after Enoch’s disappearance from Earth. I haven’t found a single Biblical scholar who will attest to its authenticity. Neither the Rabbis who selected the books included in the Old Testament, nor the council of Bishops who did the same thing for the New chose to include Enoch among the canonized books. It is included among the books of the Pseudepigraphica, a collection of writing thought to have some historical value, but not inspired by the Holy Spirit. (Pseudepigraphica is a big word for “false title.” It means they were written by some one other than their title would lead you to believe.)
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 4:27:17 GMT
Thanks MS for that! Yes, for the longest time I had thought it was Moses and Elijah, but mostly becuz that was how it was taught to me. Then the question of Enoch will reading on night got me wondering...but never got a complete answer that settled it in my mind. And as I said I did read a little from the book of Enoch and it just didn't 'feel right' to me, so I left it at that. I have gone back to the question over the yrs and just end up leaving it w/a question mark becuz I haven't quite figured out what it is that I am 'missing'. It's not so much re: whether he's one of the 2, it's more along the lines what is about him that I can't seem to grasp. Does that make sense? I am hoping that by having you all to discuss it with, w/o feeling like I am doing something horribly wrong, that maybe it will finally be the time the Lord opens my eyes to that which I cannot see now! You know how it is, you know there's more, you feel it but you can't put your finger on it. So I appreciate all your input on this!
|
|
|
Post by morningstar on Mar 10, 2015 5:19:34 GMT
Gr9tful, I totally understand what your saying, and one day you'll get the answer your looking for. I pretty much came to my conclusion a long time ago, not so much because of what I was taught, but because I pretty much go with what I've read in Scripture putting two and two together and seeing how it all flows together...that's not to say that I'm correct because we won't know for sure until the tribulation, by then we'll have front row seats in our heavenly balcony and I'm sure we'll have the answers we've been searching for while we were still on earth.
|
|
Me
Numbers' Donkey
Posts: 151
|
Post by Me on Mar 10, 2015 7:09:28 GMT
For me personally it is not a problem. The TWO witnesses were not named and so they will be whoever God decided they will be.
You know it could even be people not mentioned in the Bible that had walked closely with the Lord all their lives. Who knows. We will know after it occurs. Until then I just refer to them as the Two Witnesses and thank God that in the MIDDLE of His wrath and judgement on UnBelievers of this Earth He provides mercifully someone to herald the gospel to the world (yes along with the 144,000).
God is good and merciful and compassionate beyond our thinking. Praise Him for His loving kindness, amen.
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 10, 2015 7:30:48 GMT
For me personally it is not a problem. The TWO witnesses were not named and so they will be whoever God decided they will be. You know it could even be people not mentioned in the Bible that had walked closely with the Lord all their lives. Who knows. We will know after it occurs. Until then I just refer to them as the Two Witnesses and thank God that in the MIDDLE of His wrath and judgement on UnBelievers of this Earth He provides mercifully someone to herald the gospel to the world (yes along with the 144,000). God is good and merciful and compassionate beyond our thinking. Praise Him for His loving kindness, amen. Ultimately this is the crux, isn't it. We can (and people do) argue all day long about whether Moses and Elijah seem to be the best fit, or Enoch and Elijah, or Barney the Dinosaur and Fred Flintstone, for that matter... ...but at the end of the day, it's a moot point to a large degree - because a) God does as He sees fit, and b) we won't be here for it anyway, we'll be "watching from the mezzanine", as Chuck Missler likes to say. So while it's a fun discussion to have, something like this should never be a point of division or judgment, because the reality is that none of us know the answer to this question with absolute certainty - it's all just about our own inference from the text.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 13:54:34 GMT
I have always thought it would be Moses and Elijah. With that said, I also wonder what if God uses one man from the Old Testament and one man from the New Testament?
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 10, 2015 14:56:35 GMT
Barney and Fred Flintstone...hahahahahaha...that's pretty much what my husband said too.
I only got halfway through the book of Enoch b/c it started creeping me out. I thought there was a lot of angel worship and too much porthole stuff in there. I thought it seemed like someone was trying to speak with biblical language but they missed the mark.
|
|
|
Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 16:21:12 GMT
Yeah Shiloh, that's exactly how I would describe I felt reading Enoch, it was creepy and seemed someone was trying to sound biblical but just not cutting it! After reading that I decided ok, so if it's not written by Enoch, then 'what's up' w/him that we are left hanging? I am a person who doesn't like 'loose ends', I don't like when there's no answer to something! Put it this way, I won't even watch the shows that tell about something that happened that the authorities can't solve, such as unsolved mysteries. Drives me crazy that they end those shows w/o any answers! Nope, I can't stand that! There's got to be an ending! ~~ But like Melissa said, we really won't know re: who's the 2 until the time comes. As for Enoch, I still haven't put my finger on what his 'story' is completely, but I know it'll be something that God will/may allow me to see eventually. I will post it should it ever come! I appreciate all the help with this!
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 10, 2015 17:16:20 GMT
I agree with you completely on that, gr8tful. I think the same way. I agree with you too, Melissa.
That's pretty much what Jack Kelley said too. Moses represents the Old Testament saints while Elijah represent the New Testament/church.
|
|