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Post by Benjamin on Apr 21, 2015 23:01:17 GMT
...a new video was released by Koinonia House today.
It addresses this very question (which we've discussed, however briefly, on here). I appreciated the response (because I too had some concerns), so here it is:
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Post by Guest on Apr 21, 2015 23:46:30 GMT
Why? Because Missler is enamored by a "prophet" who makes crazy statements like this ... Kim Clement: "Pope Francis - Appointed to Join the Hearts of Protestant Faith – Catholic – Those Who Are Spirit-filled" Kim ClementProphesied on April 19, 2014 - From The Den A Renewal – Will Far Surpass the 60s and 70s As I stand at this cross, there is one that I have chosen who has kneeled at this cross many, many times. I speak of the one who calls himself after St. Francis of Assisi. The Spirit of the Lord spoke for him to come and stand at the head, "But this man is not like any other," says the Lord. "This man has been appointed to join the hearts of Protestant faith – Catholic – those who are Spirit-filled. And I will do something so unique and so different," says the Lord, "because of his acknowledgement of My power. "There is a renewal that will take place that will far surpass what took place in the 60s and in the 70s. My Spirit will not be confined; neither will it be arrested only for one or two groups of people. My eye is on the globe; My eye is on the earth. My eye," says the Lord, "is upon planet Earth, to pour out of My Spirit. "And I have chosen Pope Francis as one of the voices that will speak, and he will command, and they will try and assassinate him three times. They will try within to damage him." God says, "they will even try to poison him, but his voice will not be stopped," says the Lord. "I will cause people to run to the cross, people to cling to the cross. Many souls shall come." And then, God says, "There will be a change in the entire system. I will make a change, for what Martin Luther did 500 years ago, and when he nailed theses to the door and said, 'This is it – we believe that by faith we are saved, which is a gift of God, saved unto works, not by works.'" God's Spirit says, "So it shall be that this man shall pronounce that as well, and there shall be fire that shall ignite in the southern part of America – in the central part of America. There shall be criminals that shall be brought to justice." And God says, "This man shall change laws and there will be creeds that will come forth and the Catholic people shall rejoice and they shall smile again for I will fill them with light. I will light the candles of My incense in the buildings that were once built for My glory but were taken and used as stone, as a place of refuge, as a place of religion. I will take those same buildings throughout the earth and I will raise them up. (Photo via commons.wikipedia.org) "And in Italy, I will do something that is so anointed and strange they shall have two earthquakes and then you will know that God has begun to do His work throughout the earth. This is My word," says the Lord. "Pray for it shall come to pass," says the Lord. The "prophet" speaksYa' all meed to stop worshiping Missler and his ginormous ego. Btw, I like how Missler mentioned that Clement flew them there "First Class" ... aww .. isn't that sweet |
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Post by morningstar on Apr 21, 2015 23:48:16 GMT
I did read about this going back. (I must have been on Vac. when it was brought up on the forum) and I didn't pay too much attention to it. As Chuck Missler said, there are too many in the Christian community who are ready to jump in and find fault in a person's associations. Just because he is a friend of Kim Clement doesn't mean that he agrees with his ministry, although I had considered Kim Clement a false Teacher, but evidently he seems to be repenting and trying to learn the truth and for that I praise God.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 0:04:28 GMT
We all really need to have our spiritual antennas up.
I personally believe there are people from every Christian denomination who are truly saved and those who aren't (from the same denomination). Does it agree with the Word? is my thinking. Let the Holy Spirit guide us. I've read that Kim Clement was way out there on his theology too, but I've never read any of his teachings. I suppose if I read more from him. I could spot error. I was just never interested in what he had to say but only saw clips and bits. I should look into that more to see what he truly believes.
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 22, 2015 0:29:26 GMT
Chuck Missler on his own has a very wrong idea. I have heard him allude to how not all of the church will make up the bride, only certain members. I take it he meant, favoured members. He does say we will all be raptured however. If I come across the audio clip of that again, I will post it.
As they say, the proof is in the pudding. What has Kim Clements now come out and said? Has he publicly come out against what he has said and done in the past? Then, I might be inclined to listen to him. If he carrys on with his old behaviour, I will begin to wonder about Missler.
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 22, 2015 2:09:29 GMT
Chuck Missler on his own has a very wrong idea. I have heard him allude to how not all of the church will make up the bride, only certain members. I take it he meant, favoured members. He does say we will all be raptured however. If I come across the audio clip of that again, I will post it. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. What has Kim Clements now come out and said? Has he publicly come out against what he has said and done in the past? Then, I might be inclined to listen to him. If he carrys on with his old behaviour, I will begin to wonder about Missler. Please do post that audio if you can find it. I haven't heard that from him, and I've watched numerous videos of his (and I study at Koinonia House, too), so I'd be surprised by that (and would violently disagree!). As far as Kim Clements... I'm currently reserving judgment; not on the things he's taught in the past (which are patently false), but on the things he chooses to focus on in future. If this is a true change of heart, then praise the Lord - but I have noted that even in this past month, he's continued to post "prophecies" that "the Lord has given him" on his web site, so I'm wary. He'll have to earn my trust on that first. Obviously the tripe Clements has trotted out in the past (as posted by "Guest") is completely unbiblical; Scripture clearly teaches that there will be a falling away in the last days, and that people will abandon the truth to hear what their itching ears want to hear. Clement has certainly fallen into this category in the past, and even here is clearly teaching exactly what people want to hear, rather than what Scripture teaches. When it comes to any association between Missler and Clement, I'm hesitant to judge - Missler hasn't come out to endorse Clement's ministry (which is good, as his ministry has not been godly), nor does he seem to have hitched his wagon to Clement or promoted him in any way (save perhaps by association itself). He has said that they've become friends - and that's fine, I have friends that I don't agree with, and friends who aren't even Christians. So... while making the association so readily and without explanation may have been somewhat unwise, I'm not convinced at this point that it necessarily reflects negatively on Missler's own ministry. On his judgment? Perhaps... Now, regarding his teaching more broadly: I love many of his materials (I particularly enjoy the verse-by-verse exegesis), and I agree with a lot of his teaching and eschatology - but there are certainly issues that I don't agree with him on (can we talk about the Rider on the White Horse in Revelation again?) - but then, that's precisely why we have Scripture. We're never going to find someone we agree with on everything - but provided that their ministry is honest and Biblically derived, there really isn't much more that we can ask for. We're all human; we all make mistakes, and we've all had moments in our lives where we've suddenly realized that something we've believed or taught has been incorrect. That's just what being human is, and that's precisely why we have to rely so heavily on Scripture - because His Word alone is "God breathed, and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." If he's taught something that is blatantly in error, well, that's another issue, and requires another approach, which is also Biblically derived and mandated... but as I said, that's... another issue, for another day. |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 2:34:28 GMT
Benjamin, you are always violently disagreeing. 
I have to look up this Kim Clement guy.
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 22, 2015 2:41:03 GMT
I found this on Missler: Question: Someone sent me a copy of a book by Chuck and Nancy Missler titled Kingdom, Power, and Glory.... Have you had an opportunity to review the book? Question: Someone sent me a copy of a book by Chuck and Nancy Missler titled Kingdom, Power, and Glory: The Overcomer's Handbook , and I found it rather troubling. I have a lot of respect for Chuck and his ministry, but this really threw me. Have you had an opportunity to review the book? I'd like to get another opinion to help me decide whether or not I'm understanding what the book is saying. Response: We, too, have great respect for Chuck and consider him a good friend. Nevertheless, the book he co-authored with his wife, Nancy, has, in our view, serious doctrinal errors. The main thesis they present is that born-again believers fall into two categories: "overcomers" and "carnal Christians." When both stand before Jesus at His judgment seat for rewards, those saved carnal Christians (whose lives have produced few, if any, good works) will be relegated to a place of outer darkness during the Millennium when overcoming Christians will rule and reign with Christ. The Misslers claim support for their view by interpreting verses in Matthew 24 as applying to true believers though they be carnal Christians. Those verses declare that the lord of "that evil servant...shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (vv. 48-51). The authors interpret as metaphors the language describing the punishments listed by Jesus, thereby softening the consequences. Even so, one is still left with a purgatory-like condition for believers. How does a believer know he or she will not be cast into outer darkness, "in the darkened courtyard outside the light of the Holy Place" (Missler, p. 198), where "there is going to be much 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'"? The Misslers tell us "it is impossible for us to know who is carnal and who is spiritual. Only God knows the truth. We are not to judge! That's God's business at the Bema Seat." In truth, all of the verses that refer to "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are directed by Jesus at Jews who have, or will have, rejected Him, their Messiah. Applying any of the consequences to believers does serious harm to the gospel. At the very least, it implies punishment of sin for the believer, which he must suffer and somehow expiate during his time in outer darkness. Exactly how that's to be accomplished we're not told. At worst, like the purgatory of Roman Catholicism, the carnal Christian must pay for something that the blood of Christ did not cover. In addition to the implications regarding the gospel, it grieves me deeply that the Misslers' book may spread anxiety and fear among evangelicals, much like I had as a Roman Catholic. I knew I had punishments awaiting me, even if I made it to purgatory. Being delivered from that fear when I put my faith in the One who paid the full penalty for my sins, my heart joyfully rested in His words: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John:14:1-2 ). There are many, many other verses that clearly show that Jesus will never separate Himself nor cast the believer away from Himself. We have His blessed assurance. A number of brothers and I have discussed our concerns personally with Chuck about Kingdom, Power, and Glory through conference calls and emails. To date, Chuck's position is: "Nan and I believe it to be the most important work of our lifetime." www.thebereancall.org/content/question-someone-sent-me-copy-book-chuck-and-nancy-missler-titled-kingdom-power-and-glory-hafair use for educational and discussion purposes emphasis mine. |
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 22, 2015 2:55:45 GMT
Okay Benjamin, listen between minutes 5 and 6.
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 22, 2015 2:57:08 GMT
...what utter rubbish.
Chuck should know better than that.
The Berean Call are usually pretty spot-on when it comes to such criticism... I'll have to check this one out myself.
Thanks for following up, Liz.
----------------
(Having watched the video - we must have posted at the same time)
Yeah, I definitely disagree with that.
I think there are certainly rewards that are given to some Christians, and not others - they're detailed all throughout Scripture, and highlighted again in Revelation 2/3 - but I do not believe that membership in the body of Christ, or being a part of the bride of Christ, falls into that category. The sign and seal of that select group is the presence of the Holy Spirit, which comes only through being washed in the blood of the Lamb. Period.
I am at least grateful that Chuck pretexts that portion of his teaching with the frank honesty that he can't find anyone else to agree with him on this.
...perhaps he should be asking himself why that is.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 3:04:06 GMT
Chuck Missler is wrong on that whole thing as far as the Response goes from whomever wrote it. Sorry. For starters: "The main thesis they present is that born-again believers fall into two categories: "overcomers" and "carnal Christians." "Overcomers" are those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior and understand His work on the Cross. They have accepted the message of salvation. It sounds as though Missler and his wife Nancy are conveying that it is grace PLUS works. Been there, done that. Sorry, no going back to that old belief. The Gospel freed me and I don't mean in the sense of my sins. None of us can measure up and none of us can attain His grace . As Scripture says, "We all fall short of the glory of God and none are worthy. When Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished.". He meant that.
I'm not saying it's wrong to be friends with those who are not Christian. I am also, as I'm sure many of us are. But, I do not agree with that doctrine. It sounds to me as if he is saying, "Some Christians will be left behind because they don't quite meet the standard as to where us others do." He is treading dangerous ground there when it comes to the true message of the Gospel. Sorry, but I believe that wasn't the true message of Salvation.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 3:07:05 GMT
Didn't check the video out yet, Liz. I used to read the Berean Call all the time. I found myself having many issues with that site and stopped reading it. Long explanation.
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Post by MyWhiteStone on Apr 22, 2015 14:57:02 GMT
I wonder to what extent Jesus either smiles about, or maybe even feels sad about viewpoints His saints are willing to "go to the mat" to struggle over. I imagine our contending for the Faith in the power of Christ with doubters, detractors, or destroyers is pleasing to Him, but we are demonstrably, and I think sadly, capable of spending enormous energy, goodwill, time and emotion struggling with other believers, and in the process sadly and irretrievably losing opportunities better spent on loving both God and our neighbor through some form of hands-on evangelical ministry -- by whatever means the Spirit leads us to do His will.
I understand it takes expenditure of resources and is also exceedingly important to rightly divide the Word of Truth, but it is also important to fight an "appropriate enemy," being careful to love and not to injure those other folks who are on the Lord's side, even though we may disagree on how to interpret a complicated and arguably ambiguous Biblical truth upon employing a different viewpoint. Satan loves spreading dissension within Christian ranks. It eases his ultimate task. And our pride over some seriously considered viewpoint can unwittingly become Satan's tactical asset... while souls in our own back yard perish. Iron sharpens iron, sure, but let's be certain we don't mistake our sword-brandishing tactical training partner for the enemy. The fields are indeed white for the harvest. Sharp iron is ideally better employed in harvest than in conflict, particularly when the battle is the Lord's.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 15:16:22 GMT
Great post, Dan. I agree wholeheartedly with all of it!
There comes a point where we have to (as the bible says) shake the dust from our feet and move on. (Matthew 10:14) It's like some seeds will fall on bad soil and some will take root on good soil. (Matthew 4:7-9)
I believe I know what it means when to have my soul sorely vexed (Psalm 6:3 KJB)
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Post by Guest 2 on Apr 22, 2015 16:19:52 GMT
I have to agree with Guest1,something is amiss here!
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 17:31:50 GMT
Is this really Guest 1 acting as Guest 2 and agreeing with him or herself? Sorry, I couldn't resist and had to add a little levity.
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Post by Guest 2 on Apr 22, 2015 17:49:47 GMT
I always agree with myself,in this case,I agree with guest1 above..... I am the smartest person I know #@^&#
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Post by Guest 2 on Apr 22, 2015 17:55:34 GMT
I was just kidding about being the smartest person I know......there maybe one other out there!
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Post by Leeza on Apr 22, 2015 18:11:56 GMT
For some reason, I was never into Chuck Missler. Or Kim Clement. So this thread is enlightening.
I saw an article about his association with Kim Clement, but I didn't know enough about either man, so I did not feel led to post it. In the article, there was a video of Kim Clement speaking. Within a few seconds of the video, I got this strange, chilling feeling of evil when he was speaking, and I turned off the video immediately because I felt so creeped out. I've that feeling come over me before, especially when I have watched Benny Hinn. (Shudder). I had to turn him off, too, because I couldn't stand the evil feeling around me that I got when watching him, either.
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Post by Guest 2 on Apr 22, 2015 18:14:15 GMT
No,I am not guest1.My above remarks were made in fun!
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2015 18:18:18 GMT
Leeza, I get that same feeling. Guest 2, I thought that was so funny what you wrote above. You fit right in here as does Guest 1. Y'all should just join. |
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Post by Guest 2 on Apr 22, 2015 18:19:22 GMT
Sorry, I got a little carried away. I agree Leeza, something is not right with his teaching.
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Post by Leeza on Apr 22, 2015 18:21:42 GMT
Thanks, Guest and Shiloh. I'm glad that I am not alone in that.
I agree with Shiloh, that you should join us, Guest. You have a wonderful sense of humor. And I agreed with Guest 1 myself.
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jasperdale
Numbers' Donkey
not even slightly dead
Posts: 136 
Favourite Verse: John 4:14
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Post by jasperdale on Nov 29, 2015 20:20:21 GMT
i am beginning to think that Chuck Missler "may" be one of these guys who probably should have retired 5 years ago. it seems pretty obvious in some of his recent videos that his mind is starting to fail him. this is no criticism of him at all, for i have been truly blessed by so many of his Bible studies. Chuck's only flaw seems to be that when he gets an idea into his head.......he is very stubborn. i have heard that from many people. perhaps it is time for him to turn his ministry over to competent people and let the body of Christ take care of him for a while.
he seems to be fixated on this idea of "rewards". maybe it is because of his business background and being an over achiever. what is funny is that so much of the stuff Chuck talks about regarding "getting riches in heaven" does not interest me at all. of course i want to be obedient.......but all i want in heaven is to be sitting at Jesus feet. i don't care if i have a shack down by the river and a plain old white robe, as long as get to spend all day with my Lord Jesus. He is the only thing i truly want in heaven.
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Post by morningstar on Nov 29, 2015 20:40:04 GMT
Jasperdale!!!..It's been awhile and so good to hear from you. How are you doing? A few of us were wondering how things have been holding up for you with your health issues. We haven't forgotten you so let us know if all is well ok?
God bless you and keep you always in His sight.
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Post by MyWhiteStone on Nov 29, 2015 21:46:45 GMT
Hi there!. It would seem reports about your ascension to the King, Jasperdale, may be a bit premature. Or maybe I missed the Resurrection / Rapture last night or something. :-)
jasperdale
Ascended to the King!
***************
Yeah! Like you said, Jasperdale -- just hang out with Jesus! Ahhhhh!!! Heaven!!!!
Maybe this is the oldest example of a resurrected thread too. Anything can happen, right?
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Post by shiloh on Nov 29, 2015 22:47:35 GMT
Yeah, Jasperdale. We all tought you literally had ascended to the King. It's so nicw to see you post and see your sweet, fuzzy lion avatar.
Here's a quote that Guest 1 posted about the pope and I found all of what was posted interesting.
"And I have chosen Pope Francis as one of the voices that will speak, and he will command, and they will try and assassinate him three times. They will try within to damage him." God says, "they will even try to poison him, but his voice will not be stopped," says the Lord. "I will cause people to run to the cross, people to cling to the cross. Many souls shall come."
Ummmmmm...
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Post by elizabeth on Nov 30, 2015 0:58:56 GMT
Nice to hear from you Jasperdale.
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Post by shiloh on Nov 30, 2015 5:05:14 GMT
You know, I used to watch Pat Robertson a long time ago and started thinking the same thing about him because he sounded way off on a lot of things.
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jasperdale
Numbers' Donkey
not even slightly dead
Posts: 136
Favourite Verse: John 4:14
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Post by jasperdale on Dec 1, 2015 5:24:58 GMT
Oh, but if i HAD gone up to spend time with Jesus for a while???!!! wouldn't that be GREAT if we could occasionally slip up to be with the Messiah for a couple of weeks to get refreshed. no, while i spent the summer pretty much on the sidelines and couldn't get out of the house, i'm still firmly planted here on earth. oh, but what times of fellowship with Jesus i have had! i am so in love with Him and i must admit that i do get pretty impatient sometimes because i just want Him to come back and give me a new body so i can see Him face to Face. being forced to spend long hours at home has given me a lot more grace towards others, i think. when you spend so much time on line as i have in the past couple of years, you just HAVE to show other believers a lot of grace or you will be all alone in this world. that's why i don't get too riled up about Chuck Missler's foibles here and there. as long as a Christian believes the basics, i tend to show a lot of grace when it comes to differences of opinion regarding "secondary doctrine". the one thing i have learned is that if you find yourself reading commentary by a Christian who doesn't believe that Israel has anything to do with God's plans for the future.............sooner or later you will find they also teach a lot of other heresy. so, even though prophecy is a "secondary issue" in comparison with, say, the virgin birth.......one's views on prophecy DO matter. i am so glad that God keeps His promises. and soon, Israel will be filled with the voices of Jewish people saying "blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord" and Jesus will plant His feet on the Mount of Olives.......and then the party will truly begin! right now.....i am just hoping for ONE of the ten thousand "rapture predictions" to come true, 'cause i am REALLY ready to gaze into the Savior's eyes!!!  |
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