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Post by Benjamin on Feb 14, 2016 5:13:45 GMT
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Post by shiloh on Feb 15, 2016 3:43:39 GMT
Good presentation. I've never thought about the horses in relation and connection with Israel, much less anyone else besides Israel. My assumption is that the entire world, as far as nonbelievers would have judgement come upon them because of non belief in what Jesus had already done for us on the Cross. I honestly do not understand. It is a free gift and so many refuse to accept it.
as far as the rider on the white horse, he is in riding in the company of three evil riders who soon follow. He has a bow but what good is that when he has no arrows?
Daniel tells us there is one who is coming who "by peace will destroy many".
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 15, 2016 7:30:08 GMT
That's assuming that the fact that arrows aren't mentioned, means there are no arrows... and as I mentioned, there are 85 instances of bows being mentioned in Scripture, and arrows are only mentioned alongside them in 20. You really can't base an argument on that.
...and while there is indeed one coming who "by peace will destroy many", that's not the rider on the white horse; it's the Antichrist.
You're right about the horses and Israel. I believe that the seal judgments are relatively limited in their scope - but they will still affect the whole world. They center on Israel, I believe (at least initially), and spread outward from there. They are indeed global judgments (you can certainly see this in the 4th seal and beyond), no question.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 15, 2016 16:09:52 GMT
I'm not trying to argue with your point. Honestly, I'm just trying to understand.
If John is seeing things in a panoramic view, does this mean those spirits are in heaven? And if so, what are evil spirits doing in heaven? (set side Satan goes before the Throne of God and accuses the brethren.)
Being that the rider on the white horse has no arrows, that tells me he comes with no malice and comes in peace as a smoke screen, at first. Just like the AC signs a pact that will bring peace (supposedly) until he breaks it in the middle of the 7. In Revelation, the riders are also referred to as "he was given....". Is this referring to angels (those who serve Christ and evil ones? )
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Post by Gr8tful on Feb 15, 2016 18:02:02 GMT
Good back and forth you two!! Shiloh, I don't think you need to worry about coming off as arguing, you're not. You both have good points and I am going to keep an eye on this conversation because it's one I can learn from. Which is why it's not arguing, it is going deeper and I like that!! So, keep going.....
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 15, 2016 20:44:13 GMT
I'm not trying to argue with your point. Honestly, I'm just trying to understand.
If John is seeing things in a panoramic view, does this mean those spirits are in heaven? And if so, what are evil spirits doing in heaven? (set side Satan goes before the Throne of God and accuses the brethren.)
Being that the rider on the white horse has no arrows, that tells me he comes with no malice and comes in peace as a smoke screen, at first. Just like the AC signs a pact that will bring peace (supposedly) until he breaks it in the middle of the 7. In Revelation, the riders are also referred to as "he was given....". Is this referring to angels (those who serve Christ and evil ones? ) They're not evil spirits. They're avenging angels - and yes, they are indeed in heaven. We need to keep in mind how seriously God takes sin. This is the same God who struck down thousands of Hebrews for disobeying Him; the same God who took the lives of Egypt's firstborn, and killed 185,000 Syrians. These angels don't have a *NICE* task, but that doesn't mean that they're evil. You keep coming back to the arrows, but there's nothing in the text that suggests that their absence is relevant or important - nor is there a Biblical precedent to suggest that it's so (as I said, 85 references to bows, only 20 include arrows. Does this mean that David went to war without arrows? Not so much). Each of these riders is given what it needs to complete its mission. They are ALL angels; they all proceed from the throne room of heaven to complete a mission on earth, and they are all in the service of the King. This is the only view that is Biblically consistent (particularly with Zechariah 1 and 6), where we're explicitly told that these are a) spirits, and b) in the service of the King, who c) go out from before Him. Now, obviously none of that changes the fact that a peace accord is struck (or enforced) - but the Rider on the White Horse isn't the one who does these things. He is a spirit, not a man, as the Antichrist is, and the Biblical imagery is consistent with an angelic being, not a human leader. Even the crown I looked at in the sermon; it's a Stephanos, the crown of victory, and it's given to him by God. The Antichrist will have a crown of Kingship, as he will be given a throne by the kings that serve him, and so on. The horsemen are Angels. Their tasks are awful, but they're righteous judgments. They're in the service of the Lamb.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 16, 2016 4:25:44 GMT
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 16, 2016 8:55:47 GMT
I'm not mad at you - not at all! Sorry, I can see where you'd have got that, but that wasn't my intent in the slightest...
That's an interesting article, but I'm not sold on the Catholic/Communism/Capitalism/Islam argument. I understand what he's saying, but I don't see anything in the text that would necessarily suggest those links.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 16, 2016 15:20:20 GMT
I read that but pretty much ignored it too.
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Feb 19, 2016 4:57:38 GMT
Ben, I enjoyed your sermon. You see so many details that bring out a lot of meaning.
I believe these four horses are the first judgments of the tribulation. That would mean that the white horse or maybe Israel preparing for battle will happen shortly after the antichrist confirms an agreement with Israel. I wonder how that will play out.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 24, 2016 4:47:07 GMT
Okay I had to formulate this in my head. Even though the avenging spirits of God do God's justice, couldn't the rider on the white horse still represent the AC as judgement up the world (those remaining)? And because everyone will be looking foward a 'man' to solve all problems in the world, they are given what they had hoped for? To me, that's God's vengeance, but to them it will be their worst nightmare.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 25, 2016 10:49:46 GMT
The rider on the white horse is a spirit - not a man, as Zechariah makes clear. Antichrist is a man, not a spirit, according to 2 Thessalonians. The two are mutually exclusive.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 25, 2016 11:46:04 GMT
Ill keep this short and end this back and forth.
Yes, they are spirits. Spirits of God sent forth to do His will. This is a rhetorical question, but I wonder what the mission of the rider of the white horse really is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2016 23:07:00 GMT
I enjoyed your latest sermon Ben. I have to admit I am behind in reading all of them at the moments even though I learn for mms them.
Back and forth discussions are another way to learn and grow and I enjoyed this one you too.
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Post by Gr8tful on Mar 3, 2016 23:58:06 GMT
I'm with Rie. I enjoyed the back and forth also becuz it wasn't arguing, but as she said, a way to learn and grow. I find that very helpful and interesting. So pls, never feel it's inappropriate!! It's anything BUT that!! It's when it becomes argumentative and prideful that it becomes useless. Right now, it's very useful! And thank you Benjamin for posting this. You're doing a great job! And great questions Shiloh! It's ALLLLLL good!
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