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Post by Benjamin on Apr 20, 2016 9:09:57 GMT
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Post by shiloh on Apr 20, 2016 20:33:19 GMT
There is a lot of food for thought here. I can't even imagine how John felt seeing our Lord and on his face. I don't mean that in the sense about him acknowledging his sin, although he already knew and acknowledged he was sinner. But the pure fire in the eyes of the Lord and in all His glory. To see thee Righteous Judge must be unspeakable and hard to describe.
I don't understand why people will deliberately and repeatedly deny Him as in shaking their fists. I know they will, but it's very hard for me to grasp the coldness of mankind's heart will continue.
I don't believe any of us enjoy our sin/s (save some of Christians and non alike). I find myself striving to be more pleasing and like Christ in that sense. I'll never be there while on this earth.
What is the difference between the judgment of God & the judgment of the Lamb versus the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb? To me, all of Revelation seems the be that Their wrath begins with the release of the 4 horses and their riders.
Some bible scholars say the wrath begins in the second half of the Tribulation.
Good sermon! |
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 21, 2016 6:14:27 GMT
Well, that's really the point I made regarding the horsemen.
Everything John sees prior to the sixth seal, in Revelation 5 and 6 is EXCLUSIVELY heavenly. While he describes the missions of the horsemen, he does not at any point describe events on earth.
That's really important, because it indicates beyond any shadow of a doubt that the missions of the horsemen, and their origins, are also heavenly. They proceed from the Lamb and from His throne.
That really means there's only one logical conclusion: The wrath of God, and the wrath of the Lamb, begin at the first seal.
All six judgments occur at the hand of the Lamb.
The pre-wrath view falls apart when you read Revelation closely.
That first point there, that everything in the first five seals is heavenly in context, is vital. We read those verses and we THINK in an earthly manner: "these are the things that will occur on earth." While that's true, there isn't a single verse in those first five seals that describes an event on earth - only what the horsemen are given power to do.
Make sense?
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 21, 2016 6:23:58 GMT
All I can say is WOW! I was really blown away by this study Ben, I listened to it, then I read it right after. I thought it was so interesting the point you make about how John first describes people on earth, from a heavenly perspective was with the 6th seal. When you wrote about the scariest part of the sixth seal, you posed these questions: the events of this chapter are just. . . jaw-dropping. I'd be terrified to. But why is it that here, now, at the sixth seal, the people of the earth suddenly seem to recognize that they are under the judgement of the Lamb? How is it that a people who have long lived in rebellion against God, choosing neither to acknowledge Him as God, nor giving thanks to Him, to suddenly speak so clearly and with such conviction about the judgment they're receiving at his hands?
When you wrote about the sixth seal being about the veil between heaven and earth being removed, and everyone on earth then seeing the Almighty, Holy God; and the great terror this would cause them, it made so much sense. The supporting scriptures you gave from elsewhere in the Bible were good too. You know, I never was one to really be into prophecy much because I find it so confusing. You certainly make it fascinating though. Thanks.  |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 21, 2016 7:33:40 GMT
Yes I do understand that and I did pick up on that. I also believe His wrath begins at Revelation 1 as you. Some of the reasons I asked that question are:
1.) Because you sometimes used judgment and wrath interchangeably.
2.) Many people and a lot of scholars believe that His wrath begins in what is referred to "the great Tribulation" which is the second half of the Tribulation. I disagree with that view and only see it as an intensity of His wrath as the Tribulation continues.
3.) Most who embrace the pre-wrath Rapture hold the same view as I stated above, believing we will be raptured only in the mid-trib view. That makes no sense to me...never did.
So, my question was referring to "what is the difference between judgment and wrath and can they be used interchangeably?" To me, judgment can be harsh but nothing like His wrath. |
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 21, 2016 8:05:34 GMT
I do use them interchangeably, yes - and I think that Scripture does too... but let me answer those questions in order. 1) Yes I do - though you're right, while they can both be used to describe the tribulation, the inflection is different. Judgment, you can often think of as being dispassionate. It's not about anger or fury, it's just... a judicial decision made based upon the righteousness of the individual. In that sense, the tribulation is judgment, because God is flatly judging the earth for sin. Now, in the same sense, wrath can also be used to describe that same process, but that's talking about God's ANGER against sin. Tribulation is about both of these things: because God is both justified in meting out a punishment for sin, and, as the one being sinned AGAINST, He is also justified in his wrath. 2) "The Great Tribulation" is actually a term for the whole period, not just the the last 3.5 years. Regardless, the view that God's wrath only occurs in the latter half of the Tribulation is, I believe, completely unBiblical, as I've shared above. 3) You're absolutely right that this is essentially the pre-wrath view: that the rapture occurs at the sixth seal because only THEN does God's wrath begin (as the people of earth proclaim). This view doesn't take into account the inflection of the text. The Greek implication isn't just that the wrath of the Lamb HAS COME - it's that the wrath of the Lamb has (ALREADY) come, and is continuing to come - and that's to say nothing about the entirely heavenly thread of judgment that precedes it, like I mentioned. Good questions |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 21, 2016 19:13:04 GMT
Yes, I understand and agree with that. I just get these little side thoughts even though I do pay attention to what you said.
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 22, 2016 3:22:07 GMT
Haven't quite finished this, but can't wait to. I agree with Elizabeth it is WOW! Really makes it come to alive w/o coating. Great insight brother! Thank you for sharing this.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2016 18:06:07 GMT
Brown nosers!   |
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 22, 2016 22:40:16 GMT
When you wrote about the sixth seal being about the veil between heaven and earth being removed, and everyone on earth then seeing the Almighty, Holy God; and the great terror this would cause them, it made so much sense. The supporting scriptures you gave from elsewhere in the Bible were good too. The other thing to note on this point is that I had to leave a lot of references out, just for time reasons - there's a whole study to be done here, in terms of the veil between heaven and earth. A few examples: Isaiah 63:1 - "Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!" (why does God have to rend the heavens to come down?) Stephen's stoning: "I see the heavens open, and the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God!" (why did the heavens have to open for Stephen to see this?) ...and there's a definite parallel there between the veil that is Christ (who, being broken, gave access to the Most Holy Place), and the veil between heaven and earth. The distinction is that when we pass through the veil in Christ, we can "come boldly to the throne of grace", whereas those who see the veil between heaven and earth torn aside will be traumatized by it. Both Christians and sinners will see beyond the veil - but only in Christ will that moment be one of joy, not judgement. |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 23, 2016 2:41:01 GMT
That's interesting. Good points. I never thought about it that way, nor related all 3 examples in that same way before.
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 23, 2016 4:29:42 GMT
I'm certainly going to be reading scripture regarding the 'separating' of heaven and earth, (and all appropriate synonyms) far more carefully now.
As for passing through the veil in Christ, don't we do that the moment we become a Christian? We then have access to the throne of grace, to Christ the Lord, and God the Father.
And I apologize for gushing earlier, but I really was moved by your study Ben. I just love learning cool stuff.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 23, 2016 17:59:13 GMT
I have to agree with your point Liz. I've always thought the same way.....
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)
Maybe I'm missing something.
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 23, 2016 23:07:30 GMT
I'm certainly going to be reading scripture regarding the 'separating' of heaven and earth, (and all appropriate synonyms) far more carefully now. As for passing through the veil in Christ, don't we do that the moment we become a Christian? We then have access to the throne of grace, to Christ the Lord, and God the Father. And I apologize for gushing earlier, but I really was moved by your study Ben. I just love learning cool stuff. ...Yes, absolutely - we do indeed pass through that veil at the moment we come to Christ. For an unbelieving world, however, that moment comes much later; and not in grace, but in judgment, when the age of grace is over. I'm preaching again this morning - no video this week though (my wife's sick, and her sidekick Jade isn't well either - so I have nobody to 'man' the camera!). |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 24, 2016 3:11:42 GMT
oh poor things. I'm still praying. Not going to give up.
So what you are saying is that means for Christians during the tribulation who've come to ask the Lord into their hearts. |
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 24, 2016 3:29:51 GMT
Well... yes, but no.
Yes as in, that's right, but no as in, what I meant was that Christians live beyond the veil NOW, those without Christ will see beyond the veil THEN.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 24, 2016 3:37:50 GMT
Okay. that's what I was trying to say. I'd have to go back and find the marker where you said, "for us it will be glorious but for them it will be terrifying...." I probably worded that quote wrong.
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 24, 2016 16:36:47 GMT
Shiloh, you're a brat!!! hahahaha! Benjamin, we are still praying for your family. I know it's got to be so hard to take care of everyone and still put this lesson together. Bless you heart brother....it will be well worth it! I'm sorry there will be no video but there will be notes, pdf correct? So we don't miss a beat? This really is fascinating and I totally get what you are saying re: we don't see thru the veil as we go straight to the throne. But those who have yet to receive Christ, their eyes are still 'blind' or whatever...not open to see thru. That is amazing that I haven't heard that before, really, as it is so very true! Can't wait to keep on this. Thank you for all your blessed, hard work. WE so appreciate that. (not gushing like ELIZABETH!!! hahaha!! Just sayin', we know it's been trying for you lately!) PS Shiloh if you think at all that I was offended or hurt or annoyed or anything at all re: your teasing....pls know, I was and am not!!! I thought it was funny and I know you....you're a goof ball! And I mean that in the most loving way!!! |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 24, 2016 17:57:38 GMT
I'm glad you understood I was just kidding, Teri. That's why the laughing smiley and wink.
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Post by Benjamin on Apr 25, 2016 0:40:49 GMT
That's right - no video, but I'll upload the PDF in a second.
That's essentially my argument, too - that we live beyond the veil now, because we are in Christ. Those who deny Christ do not have access to the throne as we do; yet when the sixth seal is broken, that veil will be torn aside, not to allow man through, but that every excuse and impediment might be removed, and that God might be both just in His judgments, and the justifier of those who see, and believe. This leads both to the horrific judgments that follow (the trumpets & bowls), and to the "great multitude" that come out of the Great Tribulation.
There's a point to be made there, too - and I didn't make it in my sermon for time reasons - but the way that we use our terminology, ("Tribulation" / "Great Tribulation") to designate the whole 7 years and the last 3.5, is entirely incorrect. The breakdown is right, but the terminology isn't.
The angel in Revelation 7 reveals that "The Great Tribulation" is the entire 7-year period, which includes those who are beheaded for the sake of Christ at the fifth seal, plus the 144,000, plus the "great multitude". In contrast, the latter 3.5 years is "great tribulation, such as has never been seen before, nor will be again", as Jesus highlighted.
It demonstrates how careful we need to be with our terms... because otherwise, Revelation 7 doesn't make sense.
Anyway.
Uploading that PDF now.
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Apr 26, 2016 3:07:17 GMT
That was a great sermon. God is so good. He has adopted us, loved us, and given us permission to come to him anytime in prayer. What a privilege it is to be a part of His family.
Thank-you Ben for sharing these sermons with us.
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