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Post by Leeza on Jan 7, 2015 11:19:14 GMT
I was reading Matthew 8 this morning, and stumbled onto verse 11 which says:
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 8:11
The way I understand this verse to mean was that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are going to be in heaven with us.
However, in the 21st chapter of the Book of Revelation, it is written that only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are going to be entering the heavenly city of New Jerusalem:
But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Revelation 21:27
My question is, are we going to see the Old Testament saints in heaven? Or is it only the ones who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life?
Along the same lines, what about those Old Testament saints whose graves were opened in Matthew 27?
...and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53
Where did they go? Are they in heaven now, too?
Also, when Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Where is Paradise? Is in heaven? Will we see this man in the Heavenly Jerusalem?
The reason I am asking is because I was under the impression that only those names who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are going to be allowed into the New Jerusalem because of the way it reads in Revelation 21:27. However, with these other verses, it looks like the Old Testament saints are going to be there, too.
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Post by shiloh on Jan 7, 2015 14:01:44 GMT
When Jesus was risen, he took the Old Testament saints with Him where they resided in Sheol/paradise. Here's a short excerpt:
Question: "Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died?"
Answer: The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).
The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.
Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).
On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.
www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html
These Old Testament saints believed in the coming Messiah. So yes, we will meet them in Heaven.
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Post by shiloh on Jan 7, 2015 14:05:47 GMT
I should have added that when Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, Jesus hadn't died yet. He descended into hell too and also went to Sheol to gather all the O.T. saints to bring them with Him to heaven.
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Post by morningstar on Jan 7, 2015 17:46:11 GMT
The way I understand it, is that the "Lambs book of life" has always been there from the beginning along with the "Book of Life" (which is the book of unbelievers & believers who have ever been born)
The Lambs book of life is for those in the OT of believers who looked FORWARD to the first coming of the Messiah (The Cross) and for the NT believers who look back to The Cross.
1. The Book of life...for both unbelievers and believers from the foundation of the world...names are blotted out at time of death if a person dies in unbelief....names remain in Book of life for those who died as believers.
2. Lamb's Book of Life...for those during their lifetime that have become true believer's..names are written in the Lamb's Book of life and remain there permanently
3. The Great White Throne judgment...Although there will be many books opened....The Book of Life (which shows the names of all who were never blotted out....and the Lamb's Book of life...which shows all true believers who were written in at time of conversion..will be opened and both books will show all the true believers names which should be same in both books. The Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers only and will be shown why their judgment will be the Lake of Fire for their names will not be in either the Book of Life nor the Lamb's Book of Life...It is God's Righteous Judgment, for there will be no excuse for mankind for not accepting God's Gift of Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
There are many interpretations on this from different Bible Scholars, and some say the Book of Life and the Lamb's Book of Life are the same, but the explanation I just gave is the only one that has ever made sense to me and was explained in it's simplest way by Hal Lindsey, because with the other view it just keeps leading to the view that one can lose their salvation, and I just don't buy into that and can only confuse people.
Anyway, these on my thoughts I hold on the subject for what it's worth.
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Post by Leeza on Jan 7, 2015 18:01:22 GMT
Shiloh, I love gotquestions.org. I didn't think to look there. That was very informative. Good explanation, Morningstar. I was wondering about the difference between the book of life and the Lamb's book of life. That cleared it up.  I was so hoping to see the Old Testament saints in heaven, so I am doing a happy dance! I especially want to meet King David. It's kind of hard to choose just one favorite, but if I had to, I would definitely say he is one of my very favorites in the Old Testament....a man after God's own heart. That was a great compliment that God gave to him, so He had to have a reason.  Thank you, sisters. That cleared that up. Good job!  |
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Post by shiloh on Jan 7, 2015 20:48:33 GMT
Yeah, I'd like to meet King David too. I think God called him a man after his own heart because even though he had many sins, he truly sought God and was always repentant. I would love to meet Isaiah and Daniel too as far as the O.T. prophets goes. |
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Post by Leeza on Jan 8, 2015 2:14:22 GMT
Yes, I agree with you about King David. You can tell how much he loved the Lord just by reading the Psalms.
Yes, definitely Isaiah and Daniel. I also liked Joseph and Job.
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Post by elizabeth on Jan 8, 2015 20:41:05 GMT
First of all, here is the scripture, (Mat 8:11) "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; Here is a portion of writing by L.S. Chafer, the first president of Dallas Bible College: emphasis mine. So, while while Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of heaven is still on earth according to some theologians. It is the Kingdom of God that encompasses all. Source: www.davidcox.com.mx/library/C/Chafer/chafer_major_bible_themes_45.htmFair Use for Educational or Discussion Purposes |
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Post by Leeza on Jan 8, 2015 22:36:55 GMT
Thank you for your input, Liz. I'm afraid that this article went over my head and looked up all the scriptures in the article that talked about the "mystery", but I still don't understand how this relates to Matthew 8:11. If you could expound on that, I would appreciate it.
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Post by elizabeth on Jan 8, 2015 23:23:54 GMT
Leeza, the part I wanted to show was that some theologians believe that the kingdom of heaven is on earth, while the kingdom of God emcompasses heaven and earth. Therefore when Matthew wrote about Abraham, Jacob and Isaac reclining at table, they consider this to have been an earthly activity, not a heavenly one.
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Post by Leeza on Jul 29, 2015 0:19:59 GMT
I really appreciate all the answers that you guys took the time to look up to answer my question. But I see there are conflicting opinions about this subject, each argument using scriptures to back up what they believe. Since my life is getting closer and closer to eternity if the Lord should tarry, I really want to have a concrete answer to this question because I am anxious to find out. I am so excited to go to heaven! So this isn't just a casual question for me. It's important for me to know, so that is why I am bumping this thread up again.
Benjamin, if you read this, could you chime in with what you think, also? Or anyone else who has studied this subject in length?
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 29, 2015 3:06:56 GMT
I somehow managed to miss this before.
You've had the right answers given already - the OT saints will indeed be with us in heaven, and are in heaven right now. Let me explain that, though.
I'd suggest to you that the location of Paradise changes in Scripture, and that gives us clues as to where the OT saints were, are and will be.
PARADISE ON EARTH:
- In Genesis, Paradise is the Garden of Eden. This paradise is marked by two unique features: 1) the tree of life, and 2) the Lord's presence. At the fall, the Lord blocks the pathway to Eden with a flaming sword and guardian angels so that Adam and Eve cannot return, and live forever by eating from the tree.
PARADISE *IN* THE EARTH:
- In Matthew, Jesus says to the thief "this day you will be with me in Paradise"; yet in Matthew 12:40, Jesus reveals that the day after His death, He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".
- In 1 Peter 3:19, we're told that Jesus preached to the "spirits in prison" that were in Paradise.
- In Ephesians 4:8-10, we're told that Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth" to perform this task.
This suggests that Paradise was relocated somewhere "within the earth". The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 19 makes it clear that Sheol (which is composed of two parts: Hades and Paradise) was within the earth, and that it was the place that housed the dead (both righteous and unrighteous) prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It seems evident from this, and each of the other points, that Paradise was made and intended for man, and that the Lord has used it as a blessing and a comfort for His people throughout the ages. There is also a hint of fellowship with the Lord Himself suggested throughout Scripture, in this place, in a manner that we currently do not experience.
PARADISE EVACUATED:
- In 2 Corinthians 12:4, Paul talks about a man "who was caught up (UP) into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words"
- In Revelation 2:7, we see that the Tree of Life is "in the paradise of God" (this is the connection with Genesis), which at this point is in heaven.
After Christ descended "into the lower parts of the earth", he "led captives in His train". Jesus' completed work on the cross fulfilled the requirements the Father laid out to justify those who had shown faith in His provision (even before He was sent) in the OT, enabling them to enter heaven at this point. Now, there's a caveat to that: the OT saints exist in heaven in some sort of spirit form, remaining as yet without new spiritual bodies as per 1 Corinthians 15. We don't know a lot about that form, because Scripture doesn't tell us much.
Now, this last point is speculation on my part, but I would suggest the possibility that the OT saints are still held in paradise itself, within heaven. I take this from Jesus' statement that "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there you may be also"... and the suggestion in 1 Corinthians 15 that a new spiritual body is required to before that inheritance may be obtained. I could probably substantiate that far better from Scripture had I more time, but for now let's just leave that as a speculative idea on my part. Either way, the point is that the OT saints are currently in heaven, and will be in heaven with us after receiving their new bodies in the Rapture. And finally...
PARADISE RESTORED:
- In Revelation 22:1-5, we see the Tree of Life (and paradise with it) restored in the New Jerusalem.
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Post by Leeza on Jul 29, 2015 18:14:25 GMT
Thank you so much for your in-depth response, Benjamin. That's what I was looking for. I wasn't aware that the Tree of Life was restored in the New Jerusalem. I just assumed that it was a different Tree of Life than the one that was on earth.
Question about 2 Corinthians 12:4: I was always taught in churches that was the Apostle Paul himself. Thoughts?
Also a question about 1 Peter 3:19, the Word says that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, but did He take them up to heaven with Him at that point?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 29, 2015 22:19:00 GMT
I'd agree that it's Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:4, yes. I wouldn't necessarily be pedantic about it, but I believe that's the case. Paul mentions elsewhere that Jesus "appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born" to appoint him an apostle. I suspect this is when that occurred - and perhaps at some point while he was in Damascus, or potentially even on the Damascus road (as a revelation caught up out of time).
Regarding 1 Peter 3:19, I'd suggest that yes, that's when He took them to heaven.
The implication of the text isn't so much that he 'preached', but that he 'declared'. He was revealing to those in paradise what had occurred, declaring His resurrection and triumph over death. It's one of those 'Revelation of the King' moments that we find throughout Scripture.
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Post by Leeza on Jul 30, 2015 1:34:42 GMT
Thanks so much, Benjamin!
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Post by Gr8tful on Aug 8, 2015 18:01:04 GMT
dpr...that's funny, but it does make you think, doesn't it!!  |
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Post by Gr8tful on Aug 8, 2015 18:04:23 GMT
HEY DPR, where did your post go? Did you remove it? Making me look like i'm talking to a pretend friend or something! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2015 18:05:56 GMT
gr8ful,sorry, I deleted the post.Maybe it was funny,but maybe a little off color also!
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Post by Gr8tful on Aug 8, 2015 18:08:26 GMT
Yeah, better to be careful....sometimes it's hard to do tho!! |
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Post by Leeza on Aug 10, 2015 18:09:53 GMT
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Post by Gr8tful on Aug 10, 2015 20:46:24 GMT
That's soooo funny! Yep that's me! |
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