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Post by Benjamin on Dec 1, 2015 7:50:47 GMT
Okay, so I'm thoroughly confused. Shiloh asked me a while back if Jasper had indeed "ascended to the King", and I was confused at the time because I didn't remember having changed his status. Now, I've looked at his account, and... he's listed at 120 posts, whereas to gain the title of "ascended to the King" you need to have 99,999.
I've no idea what's going on. Glad you're not dead, though, that's a bonus.
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Post by Benjamin on Dec 1, 2015 7:55:07 GMT
Alright, found it and fixed it. There was something 'broken' in the member ranks, which meant that anybody between 99 and 125 posts was being listed as "Ascended to the King!", which... clearly, Jasper has not. Yet.
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Post by shiloh on Dec 1, 2015 15:32:08 GMT
Haha......that's how I felt too. Then I thought, "Maybe that's the wrong title and I took it literally.
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Post by morningstar on Dec 1, 2015 16:29:00 GMT
Jasperdale that was a beautiful comment, and I couldn't agree more. Chuck Missler has given me many insights into the Word of God and I appreciate his ministry, I don't always agree with him on certain things, but like he always says "Don't believe anything Chuck Missler tells you, do your own homework" which of course I do, and that goes for other good Bible Scholars. When in doubt we should always search the Scriptures in prayer and for discernment, it's never failed me yet.
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Post by shiloh on Dec 1, 2015 17:13:16 GMT
I have to admit tat I haven't really seen many of Chuck Missler's videos. The ones I did see, I agreed and disagreed with him I certain areas. But he is not exclusive in that There are many have just slight disagreements with. I usually stick with my "go too" teachers. Jack Kelley, Hal Lindsey, Pete Garcia, Jack Kinsella and David Jeremiah, Jan Markell, etc. Oh yeah...and Benjamin. I really agreed with David Jeremiah on the ones I posted about titled The Two Witnesses and the second video I posted underneath it called "What Up With Heaven?" The only thing I was thinking about that Two Witnesses was, "Well that means Moses has to die twice." "For it is appointed for man to die once." But agree with his view.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 17:40:55 GMT
Prophecy was never intended to be a profession....nuf said!
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jasperdale
Numbers' Donkey
not even slightly dead
Posts: 136
Favourite Verse: John 4:14
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Post by jasperdale on Dec 1, 2015 19:37:02 GMT
what? i've been stripped of my glory in heaven? stuck back here on earth? i guess i should have stayed a lurker......
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Post by Gr8tful on Dec 1, 2015 20:59:54 GMT
Oh Jasperdale, I'm so sorry you have to be back here on earth for now...stuck with the rest of us 'waiters'! What you wrote in your post at the end of page one was beautiful, well said, and I hear ya!! Its funny, your avatar is exactly one of the top things i'm looking forward to when we are in glory! Being able to go up to a lion, up close and personal and pet it! Benjamin, your comment on Jasperdale's profile is hilarious!
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Post by shiloh on Dec 1, 2015 23:50:04 GMT
Oh, I am with you on your post, Jasper. Imagine what that will be like to look into His eyes. As far as the other thing go, all of us were confused and Benjamin went in there and fixed it. I say you are not allowed to leave us, so we can all be raptured together.
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Post by mary on Oct 26, 2019 0:47:34 GMT
I read several of the posts. I found some quotes about judgment of believers at Grace Gospel Press and wanted to save them. In the last couple of days, this topic has come up when I saw an uplifting program with Dr Samuel Hoyt about the Bema Seat, then saw these posts at Rapture Watch the very next day, touching on the same subject.
At the end, there are some comments by Bible scholars who see the teaching of carnal believers confined into "outer darkness" as a very serious error (comments are from "A Reply to Bob Wilkins Review of Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness.") Apparently this teaching is growing, according to Dr. J. B. Hixson.
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Grace Gospel Press THEOLOGICAL ISSUES: SHOULD CHRISTIANS FEAR OUTER DARKNESS? (Chapter 2) April 7th, 2016 By Dennis Rokser
The main question this book1 seeks to ask and answer may be summarized below:
Should unfaithful Christians (not unbelievers) fear punitive damages (not just a lack of reward) at the future Judgment Seat of Christ (when Jesus Christ comes back and ....
MILLENNIAL KINGDOM EXCLUSION VIEW
The first view teaches that unfaithful believers will be cast into a literal place of outer darkness,...
.... [D. Rokser continues]
Chuck Missler is another Bible teacher that has jumped on the bandwagon of “outer darkness” being for unfaithful Christians. He even proposes a kind of “Kingdom suburb” for unfaithful Christians. “Outer Darkness”—This does not speak of “hell.” Nor is it a place where unbelievers go (1 John 2:9-11). It’s the place where the unfaithful and disobedient believers will dwell during the Millennium while they learn sanctification. It’s a separate place, another room or region outside of the light of the presence of the Lord.7
It’s simply the darkness outside the light of God’s presence. It’s another region or another area outside of where the joy of the Lord was being experienced. . . . It’s a place outside the room where the obedient servants are enjoying God’s presence, but evidently contiguous to it. The unprofitable servant can see what is going on in the other region, but he cannot enter in. He is a castaway—he was cast out of fellowship.8
They are in the kingdom, but they will be cast out from experiencing the joy of the Lord, thrown into the outer darkness (or the darkness outside) where they will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth9.
There will be no equality. All will be in the kingdom, but some will occupy positions of honor and glory, while others will occupy positions of shame and disgrace. This determination will influence our attendance at the Wedding Ceremony, the Marriage Feast, and where we will spend the Millennium.10
Dear friend, I ask you, does this sound like “good news” for the believer in Christ? Are these conclusions consistent with the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the grace of God? What saith the Scriptures?
FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE VIEW.... [the chapter continues]
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The author, Dennis Rokser, (in footnotes 7, 8, 9, 10 above) is citing Chuck and Nancy Missler's "The Kingdom, Power, and Glory."
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Now for comments at end of "A Reply to Bob Wilkins Review of the book Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness" (found at the above site.)
Conclusion The previous fourteen examples of Wilkin’s claims contrasted with our responses demonstrate that the book Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? has been badly misrepresented by Bob Wilkin in his review in the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society. But in closing, having considered the many negative claims made against the book thus far, you may wish to consider the following endorsements by several godly and grace-oriented Bible teachers and leaders that paint a very different and much more positive view of the book.
I am so glad that this book has been written for such a time as this. There is so much errant teaching in print and from the pulpit on the Judgment Seat of Christ. Pastors Dennis Rokser, Tom Stegall, and Kurt Witzig have provided a carefully researched and courageously written book that is biblically based in all of its argumentation and refutation. False teaching is addressed directly, definitively, but in kindness, clothed in Christian grace. The writers take on the false teachings that say unfaithful, carnal Christians will experience punitive judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is untrue and is an assault on God’s grace, as well as on the secure position every Christian has in Christ, Who provided the full payment for all of our sins past, present, and future. He has forgiven us for ALL of our sins (Col. 2:13). There is nothing left of sin’s punishment for Christians to pay for. This book is a must read for any and all Christians who have fears and questions about what will happen as a result of appearing before Christ at the Bema. This is a scholarly study, yet easy to read, follow, and understand. Each of the writers has presented his case with clarity, insight, grace, and respect. May God use this book to correct errant teaching and give hope and peace to all believers. Samuel L. Hoyt, Th.D. Author of The Judgment Seat of Christ and Facing Life’s Greatest Challenges
Recent confusion about the believer’s place in the coming kingdom has led some in the free grace movement to posit the unscriptural view that believers who suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ will suffer some degree of sorrow and possibly exclusion from the Kingdom during the Millennium. This view runs contrary to Biblical teaching about the grace of God and unfortunately confuses what Jesus taught to Israel in the Gospels with what the New Testament epistles have to say to the Church. The result is a mixing of law and grace, a position against which the apostle Paul contended in so many of his epistles. Dennis Rokser has assembled a team of solid Bible teachers who hold to a Biblical position that is thoroughly grounded in the grace of God. This book is a must read for pastors and earnest Bible students today. I highly recommend it. George Gunn, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Bible, Theology, and Biblical Languages Shasta Bible College, Redding, CA
Like several other Grace Gospel Press publications, Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? is a much needed clarion call to return to the grace of God which is able to perfect us in Christ Jesus. Putting fear into believers by misinterpreting certain passages to teach that punitive damages may await them at the judgment seat is neither a biblical nor healthy motive to live the Christian life. God’s grace has always been sufficient! Perfect love casts out fear. The authors deal with the passages involved in the discussion and show how rightly interpreting them leads to a harmony of Scripture. If you are tired of the perform-or-else mentality this book will give you a much needed rest and desire to meet your Savior. Jeremy Thomas Pastor-Teacher, Fredericksburg Bible Church
The contributors to Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? have done the Church a major service. First, they have helped to identify and clarify the majority teaching of the grace movement on the issue of millennial exclusion. Second, they have successfully refuted the view that some true believers will be excluded from any events of the millennium, including its initial marriage feast. While readers, even of the same perspective as the contributors, may disagree with some of the details, this work provides an excellent overview of the hermeneutical and theological issues involved. At stake is the biblical view of the nature of grace and God’s revealed plan for His coming kingdom. Mike Stallard, Ph.D. Dean and Professor of Systematic Theology Baptist Bible Seminary, Clarks Summit, PA
Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? examines some unusual theories that are currently being advanced about the judgment seat of Christ. Will believers face a type of protestant purgatory? Does loss of rewards mean banishment from the kingdom for the believer? The authors thoroughly examine and refute these strange doctrines. They explore the relevant passages of Scripture and allow the text to speak for itself. This study on eternal rewards from a traditional free grace perspective is a breath of fresh air. Bob Nyberg, New Tribes Missionary Training Center
As with so many movements, the free grace movement seems to suffer from both its friends and foes alike. On the one hand are the opponents of free grace, such as the advocates of Lordship Salvation and Hyper-Calvinism, who essentially contend that progressive sanctification is automatic in the life of every child of God. Under this rubric, the Judgment Seat of Christ would be the equivalent of everyone receiving a participation trophy at an awards ceremony. Since perseverance is automatic under their system, there will be no real forfeiture of awards or loss experienced by the child God at the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. On the other hand, are those advocates of free grace theology who are so aggressive in maintaining the reality that not all believers persevere, that they end up perverting the Judgment Seat of Christ into an imbalanced concept. The latter often argue the case for millennial exclusion, or the idea that some believers will make it into the kingdom while others will not. They also argue that some Christians will actually experience the wrath of God and punitive damages at the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. Although much has been written critiquing the former group, not much has been written critiquing the latter group by those within the free grace camp. Critiquing your opponents is always easier than critiquing your friends. The dearth of literature on this topic makes the present volume of great importance. The writers take great pains to demonstrate that turning the Judgment Seat of Christ into the wrath of God is just as problematic, perhaps even more problematic, than making the Judgment Seat of Christ of no consequence. The case for punitive damages at the Judgment Seat of Christ is often developed from the pre-Church-Age parables. In this book, the authors set the record straight by maintaining the Israel-Church distinction, which allows interpreters to build their interpretation for the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ from the right set of Scriptures. They also show that the notion of the wrath of God at the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ is really a concept that is an extreme one and far outside what the dispensational tradition has historically taught. If you are confused about the future judgment seat of rewards, either by assigning too little consequence to it, or by reading too much into it, then this book is for you. This book is recommended since it brings much needed balance to the judgment seat of rewards, which is a very important yet grossly misunderstood area of prophetic truth. Andy Woods, Ph.D. Professor of Bible and Theology at College of Biblical Studies Senior Pastor, Sugar Land Bible Church
Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? is an excellent and much needed response to the false teaching of a “Protestant Purgatory” or a “Punitive Bema Seat of Christ.” This work is biblical, exegetical, and pastoral. It heartens the believer from Scripture that the “outer darkness” is for the unsaved, not for the Christian; that to be “cast out” from the coming Kingdom or the New Jerusalem in the Eternal State is for the lost, not the child of God; that to be an “overcomer” is not based on the believer’s performance as a Christian, but rather on his position in Christ, the Overcomer. By careful and proper exegesis of the biblical texts, the authors demonstrate that the Judgment Seat of Christ is not a place for the rod, but for rewards. If it were not, and punishment for sin, failure, and unfaithlessness is to be doled out to the Christian on that future occasion, then why believe now that Christ’s propitiatory and substitutionary sacrifice was sufficient to meet God’s righteous demands? Why have any joyful anticipation of the Blessed Hope? This book reassures the believer that Christ’s death was sufficient, and the Christian can look joyfully for his Lord’s return at any moment. Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? The answer is a definitive No! And this book proves it. The believer’s heart will certainly be strengthened by grace in reading it. Bruce Scott, M.Div. Friends of Israel Director of Field Ministry & Hesed Project
Every few years, it seems a dangerous new “wind of doctrine” blows through the church leaving a large wake of victims in its path. While the false teaching regarding Christians and Outer Darkness is by no means new, it has gained surprising new traction in recent years. Should Christians Fear Outer Darkness? examines the clear teaching of God’s Word on this issue, and categorically refutes the notion that Christians will face any form of punitive damages after death. J. B. Hixson, Ph.D. President, Not By Works Ministries
After reading this book, and reading it a second time, I can fully endorse it as an excellent study of the question of whether or not a true believer in Christ, that is, one who has been “born again,” will be judged for sins after believing in Christ and be cast out into outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Some evangelical, conservative pastors and teachers are currently teaching this so-called “Protestant Purgatory” as true to Scripture. I am pleased to say that this book, edited by the Grace Gospel Press, Duluth, Minnesota will more than adequately refute this doctrine. The authors are all elders / pastors from the Duluth Bible Church. There are 17 chapters in all, every one of them giving full attention to these and many other issues related to this doctrine. The answers are thoroughly treated and if the reader takes time to read each section carefully and prayerfully, he or she will have ample reason to believe what Jesus Himself said in John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out.” Thomas O. Figart, Th.D. Retired Bible College Professor Author of The King of the Kingdom of Heaven: A Commentary on Matthew
This book is one of those rarities—it will not stay in your library; you will be taking it off the shelf and referring to it time after time after time. From the first chapter on, you will be hooked by the book’s thorough and rigorous scholarship with its practical applications of Bible doctrine—those great truths which will bring comfort and assurance to the believer who is justified, declared righteous, and “in Christ.” It would take a thesaurus full of superlatives to do justice to this book. Michael D. Halsey, D.Min. Bible Teacher at Hangar Bible Fellowship Chancellor & Professor at Grace Biblical Seminary
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Post by michael on Jun 25, 2023 8:19:36 GMT
As the last person to date in this discussion, and not yet the time to digest mary Judge of Israel, I wish to note that all of the great reformers who stood against works righteousness had differences w each other. It is impt that we seek to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. For it is by the truth that Jesus plead his Heavenly Father would sanctify/consecrate us. At a time when we need unity, it is arrogant that preachers and teachers sprout forth to cull out membership after their own personality, or after the 'class' of person who is able to be an active participant... Eg: the lead pastor announces that the next month is to be devoted to mental health. In the 'audience,' for that is what it appears compared to a congregation or fellowship, there are persons who have obvious mental health issues (yes, you can physically see who by their face, by their tears, by their bmi, etc. I watched as no one approached these people. Did I? You can guess, but do not miss the point. At a time when our youth are being baked and fried, knowing that there is such a thing as a healthier family and church than they have experienced (again, it might be their experience, or their friends, or people they see and try to befriend), the rule of thumb is you leave an unhealthy environment before you get infected... At a time when anthropocentric, entertainment, and default to blatant anti-Christ in the Church, or pop, motivational, positivistic theology is rampant, we do well to remember that St Paul had to deal with 'super-preachers.' He concluded in Phil 1: 21, so long as Christ is preached! At a time when the world is dispensing with objective truth, and the Person of Truth in the Divine Word (Logos) and his book of words.... At a time when truth is dispensed with and being re-written, and untruth is legislated to be truth, and anyone is persecuted if 'they' object.... In such times, we have to work extra hard to strive for the truth. John 17: 17 must be the continual prayer of our hearts. John 17: 22-23 is deliberately crafted (livingword.org) I suspect that Chuck really struggled to understand how Israel has a special place in the manifestation of The Kingdom of God on Earth and in Heaven. I personally, NOW, take offence at the teachers who portend to have a claim on all truth. I have that heritage. So does every serious Bible teaching denomination. St Paul said that differences are necessary so that we may be forced to study the Word of God and discern its truth: 1 Cor 11. We need not be ashamed of our differences. Those who hide behind being non-denominational have little to teach. Those who are broken records which, in most every conversation, repeat the need to have a personal relationship with God often have little else to teach than their cheap illustrations of God being like a mother bird in a park that flies off to gather its chicks and let the people feed them... These are like people in distress who need personal comfort beyond the W of G. We know that God loves and cares for us... Need I regurgitate Matthew 5-7, hairs on the head, birds... I am not against these devotional inspirations that comfort people. I could have learned to preach and teach better if I had noted that my father's letters contained unpretentious, sermonic reflections about which he never, ever entertained the thought that his reflections were in any way God speaking a rhema word.. I recently heard a sermon that hit some of the most outspoken critics of current issues, people willing to go to goal to undertake a new vocation for holding their position. The sermon was on 'Lordship Salvation,' being heresy. So it is. Slander is an assault on the name of God which he places on his children. But, I had never heard of 'Lordship Salvation' and am sure that the preachers identified did not mean to teach salvation + good works. They are very outspoken about that. So, as a teacher, I would expect that I write to and clarify the sloppy theology of the persons I wish to critique. If I don't then I energise my teaching out of anger, pride, arrogance. I become a loveless preacher and a noisy gong. I have not worked out the Millenial-Rapture teaching differences. I know that God's children will suffer in the end-times. If the Bible can be read any other way,,, Yet, I do not have any answer about the nature of the Rapture... What I know is that I will join those who may differ on 'secondary doctrinal issues.' The confessions of different denominations read as progressive tractates which move from the most important, the central teachings of Scripture, progressing outward toward doctrines of lesser importance (Yes, I am a Lutheran and this is how I read 'The Augsburg Confession.' It is a witness tractate; a missional tractate that spells out Jesus' mission/vision for HIS Church. At this time, we need to build bridges toward unity based on discussions to clarify what the truth is. Spirit and truth are not opposites. Love and truth are not opposites. While I have not entered the theological discussions that this 'thread' addressed, I have attempted to address HOW we go about these discussions. Unfortunately some documents of unity demonstrate compromise and no resolution of differences. As to the previous pope, it might be that he saw things he did not like.... As to the present pope, he clearly has embraced the world's system. I have not studied the former pope, but have seen and heard the clearly anti-Christ of the current pope. I do not intend to go soft on the truth. I do not propose compromise. I do suggest that when we note error we be careful as to how we speak of other people. Their name and reputation is a gift of God to be protected. King David had an incredible sense of awe for when and how Divine justice was to be enacted against his enemies. I hope these are helpful thoughts.
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