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Post by elizabeth on Nov 20, 2017 1:04:23 GMT
I was sure there was a Bible question on this already, but I couldn't find it. I did find the Pastor's take on this youtube very interesting, so I thought I would post it. Start listening at the 35:20 mark. I think what he says makes a lot of sense. What do you guys think?
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bibelleser
Exodus Traveller
Posts: 30 
Favourite Verse: Acts 2:21
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Post by bibelleser on Nov 20, 2017 16:28:56 GMT
"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1John 3:1-2)
By the way: the rapture is by no means one of the mysteries in the New Testament. There is no verse in the Holy Scripture telling us the rapture would be a mystery, also not 1Cor 15:51-53. The mystery mentioned in 1Cor 15:51 is not the rapture. It is the change of our bodies. You just need to read. The rapture is not even mentioned here.
Jesus Christ himself already spoke about the rapture (e.g. Matt 24:40-42/Lk 17:34-35/John 14:3), but he did not speak about the change of our bodies, which is necessary in order to be able to get raptured. This is the mystery Paul was speaking about.
After we have been changed from mortality to immortality, resp. from finite to infinite, we will see the infinite Father.
We need to better trust in the Word of God, not just in peoples own thoughts. Test everything; hold fast what is good. (1 Thes 5:21)
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Post by elizabeth on Nov 21, 2017 1:05:04 GMT
Firstly bibelleser, I appreciate your answer.
I don't understand why you think we will be infinite? Also, I did not know what 'resp.' was short for. I know we will live for eternity, but this is different.
My question was whether we will see God the Father. It had nothing to do with the rapture.
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bibelleser
Exodus Traveller
Posts: 30
Favourite Verse: Acts 2:21
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Post by bibelleser on Nov 21, 2017 13:52:53 GMT
Thank you for your help to discover my language mistakes. I appreciate such kind of help, because in this way I'm able to recognize what I did wrong. I used the abbreviation "resp." (stands for "respectively") infix, but in English it has to be used postfix. I didn't know that up to now. Sorry for that mistake.
My answer to your question was already given within the first three sentences, namely within 1John 3:1-2 (we shall see him). The rest was "by the way" only.
Anyway, you are right, your question had nothing to do with the rapture. But the posted youtube deals with both, with your question as well as the rapture. And: both with misleading answers.
As recommended I started listening at the 35:20 mark. The speaker said: "we will not see God, the father", which is wrong. After that, while I proceeded listening, I noted a second mistake: the rapture was a mystery, which was never ever revealed before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians. This is wrong, too.
Therefore, I explained that in 1Cor 15 Paul talked about the change of our bodies, not about the rapture. But this change is nevertheless important, especially with regard to your question, because it makes us eternal, endless or infinite, thus suitable to see the father. The problem now is that in the youtube this change (as well as it's impacts) has not been considered accordingly. Therefore, the speaker in the youtube is of the wrong opinion that we would never be able to see God, the father.
Hope, my answer is somehow clearer now.
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Post by elizabeth on Nov 21, 2017 17:16:57 GMT
Thank you, thank you bibelleser for pointing this scripture out. This was a question I have long wondered about, and always hoped for this answer.
I don't agree with you about the rapture not being one of the mysteries, though.
Here is scripture from 1Corinthians.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
I think the mystery covers more than our changed body; that is just one part of the rapture. If you want to be so technical, you could consider the mystery here to be that 'we shall not all sleep' as that is the first thing mentioned', and only that. It's like not seeing the forest for the trees. Biblical scholars such as L.S. Chafer and W.R.Newell consider the rapture to be one of the mysteries. I'm going to post an article titled Paul's Gospel, it indicates Chafer and Newell's noting of this.
The scriptures you noted in Matthew and Luke I consider to occur just before the Lord's return at His second coming. I went to the experts, they are better at explaining this opinion. They did agree with you on the scripture in John though. Here's what John Walvoord and Roy Zuck's Commentary said about these 2 of these scriptures:
You noted that Matthew 24:40-42 was a rapture scripture, along with Luke 17:34-35 and John 14:3
Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Regarding Matthew 24:37-42
As it was in Noah's day, so it will be before the glorious coming of the Lord. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Analogous to Noah's day, the individuals who will be "taken" are the wicked whom the Lord will take away in judgement (cf, Luke 17:37). The individuals "left" are believers who will be privileged to be on the earth to populate the kingdom of Jesus Christ in physical bodies. As the wicked were taken away in judgment and Noah was left on the earth, so the wicked will be judged and removed when Christ returns and the righteous will be left behind to become His subjects in the kingdom. P. 79, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck General Editors.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."
Luk 17:37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."
Regarding Luke 17:34-37
17:37 The disciples questioned where these people would be taken. Jesus' cryptic answer, Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather--has been interpreted variously. It seems best to understand that Jesus was reaffirming that these people would be taken into judgment. Much as a dead body causes vultures to "gather" on it, so dead people are consigned to judgment if they are not ready for the kingdom (cf.Matt. 24:28; Rev. 19:17-19). P. 249, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck General Editors.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Here the experts agree with you, that this is a rapture verse. I agree to a point, but this one verse does not really explain the rapture. It notes that Christ will come for us. It doesn't explain that we will be changed, whether we are dead, or alive, and that we will all return to meet Christ in the air, like the verses Paul reveals.
By the way bibelleser, I think your English is excellent.
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bibelleser
Exodus Traveller
Posts: 30
Favourite Verse: Acts 2:21
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Post by bibelleser on Nov 21, 2017 19:59:15 GMT
Thank you for the compliment regarding my English, but I'm still not enough fluent in this language. Therefore, I have to look quite often into the dictionary.
I will come again and will take you to myself (John 14,3). This is the rapture: I will take you. To get raptured means to be taken away from one place to another place (from earth to heaven). This is different from the change of our bodies, which happens before we will be taken away. Thus, 1Cor 15 is not teaching the rapture, but the change of our bodies. This is a big difference. That's why no one is going to be taken away in 1Cor 15.
Now, if the experts (e.g. from the Dallas Theological Seminary) on the one hand agree with me that John 14:3 speaks about the rapture, they can't say on the other hand that the rapture was a mystery until Paul had revealed it. It doesn't work. If Jesus Christ already spoke about the rapture (see e.g. John 14:3), it was no longer a mystery.
As far as Luke 17:34-35 and Matt 24:40-42 is concerned, those experts, who agree with the opinion, these verses would speak about a judgement, do - however - not agree regarding the group of people going into the judgement. If you read their commentaries you will discover minimum 4 different opinions on that issue. That means: there is no agreement at all and therefore no solution. It is an impasse.
Furthermore, some of them believe, "His day" (Lk 17:24) would be just a regular 24 hour day. They did not yet recognize that the light day in Lk 17:31 takes many days (as already demonstrated in the thread about "His day") and therefore did not consider that it's opposite "this night" (Lk 17:34) is a long period of time also. They even translate "that night" (which is wrong) instead of "this night" (which would be correct). The night is already over before the judgement begins, because the judgement is not an event of this night, but of that light day.
The next event in the present night will be the rapture: One will be taken and the other left. In John 14:3 Jesus said the same: I will take you.
This is also the position of Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is a graduate from DTS, too. He wrote in his well known book about bible prophecy that Lk 17:34-35 and Matt 24:40-42 speak about the rapture.
However, if you think the rapture was a mystery which was unknown until Paul revealed it, you will never find it in the gospels. Your thinking will stay blocked in this regard. Furthermore, you need to reasonable reject the complete view which has been presented in the thread about "His day". I'm curious to know how you will manage that.
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Post by elizabeth on Nov 21, 2017 20:14:36 GMT
bibelleser, I put great stock in certain Bible scholars such as Chafer, Newell, Darby, and they consider the rapture to be one of the mysteries. I'm not going to argue this point further. The reading of the scripture also makes sense to me. We will just have to agree to disagree.
As to the thread on His Day, I was not interested enough to follow it. Perhaps I will pick it up at a later date.
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bibelleser
Exodus Traveller
Posts: 30
Favourite Verse: Acts 2:21
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Post by bibelleser on Nov 21, 2017 20:30:52 GMT
Without any doubt, I also have a great respect for these excellent bible scholars, I'm very thankful to have opportunity to study their bible commentaries, and I learned a lot from them, but I do not believe each and everything what they wrote. Therefore, test everything; hold fast what is good.
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bibelleser
Exodus Traveller
Posts: 30
Favourite Verse: Acts 2:21
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Post by bibelleser on Nov 24, 2017 10:10:53 GMT
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