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Post by Benjamin on May 10, 2014 6:47:06 GMT
This question was sent to me last week from a RaptureReady reader, and I thought it was worth sharing, as it was a good question. Names etc. have been removed.
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Post by Benjamin on May 10, 2014 6:47:37 GMT
Usually when we find a ‘contradiction’ in Scripture, it’s a prompt to dig a little deeper. Some of the most interesting discoveries I’ve encountered have come about through this very process. I think the explanation behind this particular statement is actually quite simple – and that Jesus himself gives a few clues. Let me qualify that.
What is 'heaven'?
The word(s) translated as “heaven” in English in our Bibles are actually in reference to multiple locations; that is, there is a first, second and third heaven. Paul hints at this in 2 Corinthians 2:12: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows”, but the text that is the real crux is located in Genesis 1. In Genesis, God divides heaven FROM heaven – creating the 1st heaven (our atmosphere, “the sky”) and the 2nd heaven (space). The Third Heaven is where God’s throne is located, and is likewise the place Jesus referred to when He said “I go to prepare a place for you… that where I am, there you may be also.”
With that in mind, it would pay to look a little more closely at the stories of Enoch and Elijah.
In regards to Enoch, the Biblical stories of his ‘translation’ don’t actually specify that he was taken to heaven at all. Genesis 5 says:
“21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him” The only other Biblical references to Enoch (Luke 3:37, Hebrews 11:5 and Jude 1:14-15) do not clarify his ‘translation’ any further, except to say that he was indeed translated (raptured, “caught up”). This might suggest that he was lifted bodily from the earth, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he was taken to the third heaven.
As far as Elijah is concerned, he being caught up to heaven are not in reference to the Third Heaven, where the throne of God is, but simply a reference to Elijah being caught up into the sky in a heavenly chariot. The Hebrew term used here is “haš•šā•ma•yim”, which indicates the heavens (plural), and is used in Scripture to refer to any of the three heavens. While this term is inspecific, taking the broader context of Scripture (including John 3:13), we can see that Elijah couldn’t possibly have been taken to the third heaven, because “no one has ascended to heaven…. save the Son of Man”. It seems unlikely, too, that it was the second heaven (space), but simply the first - which is to suggest that he was simply caught up in the sky, before being taken to his ultimate destination (paradise).
Some have argued that Scripture is dealing with near-death experiences in this case. I'd disagree here, in that I believe that Elijah most definitely did leave earth – Scripture plainly states that he did, with Elisha witnessing the fact – and I don’t believe that these were mere near-death experiences (in fact, they can’t be, as Elijah didn’t write the book of 2 Kings, and wasn’t around afterward to detail the events – and an NDE is intensely personal, and wouldn’t be an experience Elijah could share with Elisha, much less Jeremiah, who is traditionally considered to be the author of that book).
So, has anyone actually seen heaven, other than Jesus?
In the quoted verse (John 3:13) Jesus says that "no one has ascended into heaven...", and I suspect the tense here is important, because at that point, prior to His death and resurrection, nobody had. This isn't to suggest that nobody had ascended at all (as we've clarified already, Elijah was certainly lifted up into the sky), but specifically that nobody had ascended into the Third Heaven.
Is that still the case now, though?
I would suggest that the experiences of those who claim to have gone to heaven can potentially be valid in Biblical terms, (note: I can't speak specifically for Don Piper, not having read his book), but are not necessarily so. I'll explain. We know that, prior to Christ, the souls of the dead went to Sheol, the “place of the dead”, which is described most vividly in Luke 16 (the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus). For this reason, no man, woman or child who lived before Jesus Christ would or could have "ascended" to the third After Christ, though, He being the firstfruits, those who are saved and who die in Christ Jesus are taken directly to heaven (Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, among many verses that detail this fact). It is therefore not inconceivable to think that AFTER Christ, there may very well be some who have, either physically or through visions, glimpsed heaven in their own near death experiences... but, being subjective experiences, they must always (always!) be subjected to the only litmus test we have: the Word of God.
This, really, is the bottom line: that, as in all things, we must “test the spirits, to see if these things are from God.” Every claim, every near-death experience or story regarding the heavenly realms can, and must be tested according to Scripture to see if they hold up against the scrutiny of God’s Word – bearing in mind, as always, that the hour is late, and that the enemy is working overtime seeking to deceive even the very elect.
Hopefully I’ve answered this question to the best of my ability – but no doubt if you keep digging in Scripture, you’ll find more clues that give you the answer that you’re looking for. The more I read, the more I learn, and the more I discover that the depth of God’s Word is truly limitless. Be a Berean!
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Post by shiloh on May 10, 2014 11:09:57 GMT
Now, I've read many other biblical scholars interpret that passage differently - claiming they were raptured. I can sort of see what you're saying but would that mean they're floating around in space if they're in the second heaven? I mean, it's a whole bunch of stars and planets. It must be cold out there.
Also, Paul wasn't permitted to speak of it after he was 'caught up' to the 3rd heaven and was given a thorn in his side. So, is that how we reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 2:9?
I also toss almost all of those heaven experiences aside. I have a hard time believing them and most contradict Scripture.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 12:30:35 GMT
I don't believe anything in Scripture contradicts another thing in Scripture. I think there is always an explanation, I agree that through looking a little deeper we often find the answer, and maybe we will only fully understand some of those other minor details when we are finally with Him. This was a good question, though, and a possible good answer. I think I just have one question about this answer. So, before Jesus, where were Enoch and Elijah taken to? The place of the dead where Abraham and Lazarus had been, without experiencing death at all? This could be the case since at the Transfiguration both Moses and Elijah appeared together.
I agree with Shiloh about the NDEs. Maybe some of them are true and I'm just being overly skeptic about them, but... I'm not taking any as doctrine either.
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Post by Benjamin on May 10, 2014 13:14:25 GMT
We seem to have hit some confusion somewhere - I'm not claiming at all that Elijah was taken up into the 2nd heaven (space), simply that he was lifted up into the sky. It's a relative question, really... because ulimately two of the heavens are really just "up".
I'd say definitively that Scripture tells us that those who died before Christ went to Sheol - belivers, to "Abraham's bosom", or "paradise", while unbelievers went to the same location, but to a place of torment instead. This would mean that Enoch and Elijah, when "translated" and "taken up", respectively, were taken to this place of the dead directly, without experiencing human death.
I'm also highly skeptical when it comes to NDEs. I think some are genuine, but these are few and far between... most, I'd suspect, are due to physiological factors, and not the result of people being literally transported to heaven before being sent back. Beyond that, there are some that are flat out deception and heresy (Kat Kerr springs to mind).
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Post by shiloh on May 10, 2014 13:27:08 GMT
Good question, John. It's my undersanding that Sheol is split into two places. I'm not quite sure I understand that whole thing. Now, Moses is another story. He died but according to the book of Jude, Michael and Satan fought over the body of Moses and God Himself buried Moses where no one can find. It's even hidden from Satan. What purpose Satan had in mind is anyones guess. I have my own speculations as to why.
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Post by Benjamin on May 10, 2014 13:32:12 GMT
Care to share your speculation on that? I have my own, but you first!
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Post by shiloh on May 10, 2014 14:38:21 GMT
In a nutshell, my thought was that Satan could have wanted to use him as the antichrist (in a sense) to deceive Israel. He would want to embody him.
Your thinking?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 15:39:48 GMT
Then that does make sense, Benjamin. I mentioned Moses as an example because he appeared together with Elijah, and Moses had experienced that physical death, so he would have been taken to the place of the dead. Leading me to think they were both in the same place, and that that's where Elijah had been taken to as well, without experiencing that physical death.
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Post by shiloh on May 10, 2014 16:55:55 GMT
I don't want to get off topic but do you think that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses? I can see how people think that way and I tend to lean toward that thinking too because both of them appeared with Jesus in the Transfiguration. However, are there exceptions to Hebrews 9:27 ? I mean, poor Moses would have to die twice but so did Lazarus. Bummer.
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Post by Benjamin on May 10, 2014 21:43:14 GMT
I've often wondered if Satan's desire for Moses' body might have had something to do with the Two Witnesses. Although that part of the Bible hadn't been written yet, I also wonder if our earthly Bible is just a copy of a heavenly story (in the same way that the original Ark of the Covenant is in heaven - and what we had on earth was just a copy).
Regarding Hebrews 9:27 - I think that verse is simply regarding the natural order of things. You live You die You face judgement.
It's not necessarily a great statement denying the possibility of resurrection etc.
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Post by shiloh on May 11, 2014 0:07:54 GMT
I've read that view before. Interesting and intriguing.
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Post by Benjamin on May 11, 2014 2:05:13 GMT
I've read that view before. Interesting and intriguing. I'm not stating it necessarily as something I believe - just an interesting thought. I have absolutely no idea, and there's nothing in Scripture that suggests that this is so... so it's just that - a thought. Either way, whatever Satan wanted to do with Moses' body couldn't possibly have been anything good...
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Post by shiloh on May 12, 2014 4:35:52 GMT
Well, your thought is an interesting possibility. Obviously, we know it would have to have been something concerning Israel. I mean, who else would they look up to and follow? Moses, appointed by God, was a great leader.
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Becka
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Post by Becka on May 13, 2014 18:26:48 GMT
Well, no one can ascend to Heaven without the help of God. With Elijah and Enoch, God obviously helped them along. I'm unsure if they went to "Heaven" proper, or Abraham's Bosom, as already stated. Likely the latter, as even Enoch and Elijah would need the covering of Christ to get through those Pearly Gates.
Now, "no one has ascended" (on their own) would be the caveat I would put on there. Christ came from Heaven, He came down from Heaven, to lift us all UP to Heaven. He has become the door, the bridge, the link we needed between God and man. Elijah and Enoch could never have ascended without the fiery chariot or the will of God.
This is like the "no one is righteous, no not one" conundrum. We understand that those who believe on Christ ARE righteous, but apart from Christ they are NOT righteous. In the same way, we ascend to Heaven, but apart from Christ, ain't no one gettin' there.
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Post by shiloh on May 14, 2014 1:02:49 GMT
Where Did Enoch And Elijah Go? (Q&A by Jack Kelley) Q. We’ve been reading your website for a few months now and we’ve learned a great deal about current events and how they relate to Biblical prophecy. We also enjoy your writing style and indepth approach to studying the Scriptures. My question is this: I know that before Jesus died for us, no one could go to heaven and be in the presence of God. Where did Enoch go when he was translated, and where did Elijah go when he was taken up into heaven? God bless you. We pray for you often. A. Enoch and Elijah are two Old Testament examples of men taken live into heaven. Neither of them died first. In Enoch’s case he is specifically described as “walking with God.” Elijah of course went in a chariot of fire that swooped down and picked him up in a whirlwind. The Bible doesn’t describe their destination specifically, but some scholars have speculated that they were raptured just as the church will be. If that’s the case, they were pushed forward in time and given perfected bodies allowing them to survive in the presence of God. Enoch has no further mission that we know of as far as Earth is concerned, but Elijah continues to be involved with mankind being anticipated at every Passover and present in spirit at circumcisions. He also appeared on the Mt. of transfiguration with Moses and will serve with him as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/where-did-enoch-and-elijah-go/ Here's another one:
Question: "Does John 3:13 mean that no one went to Heaven before Jesus?" Answer: John 3:13 says, "And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven." This verse is somewhat difficult to interpret and is often misunderstood. It is also frequently used by those who want to find contradictions in the Bible. Looking at the verse in context, verses 10-12 especially, we see that Jesus is speaking on the subject of the authority and validity of His teaching. In verse 13, Jesus explains to Nicodemus why He alone is qualified to speak of these things, namely, because He is to only one who has ever gone to heaven and then come back with knowledge from heaven to teach to people. No man, therefore, can speak of heavenly things as authoritatively as Jesus. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them and demands that they have been seen and experienced as only Jesus has. As no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of these things but He who came down from heaven. Jesus was saying that He alone was the one who had seen the Father, and He alone was qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18). This does not mean that no one had ever gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11) and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others were there. Rather, it means that no one had ascended and “returned,” in such a way as to be qualified to speak of the things there. "Ascending" carries the idea of going some place with authority. Jesus is the only one who has ever ascended to heaven with authority, since He is God’s only Son (John 1:14). www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html
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