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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 22:44:01 GMT
Ok, there's something that has been on my mind ever since I read it a long while ago. About women. Before any of the guys start sending me messages with advice about women, no. That's not what this is about. Lololol. I'll start with not so much as a question for an answer, but more of a rhetorical question. A little while ago today I decided to grab my mother's slightly girly bike out of the blue and go to this "Evangelical Prayer House/Congregation" here in the town where I live, because I happened to check the internet and saw that they were meeting today, and I had wanted to know what they were like for a while now. I thought that was another place (that they were Evangelical Baptists), but it turns out it's not. But I got to meet them, and they pointed me the directions to the actual Evangelical Baptist church I was looking for, so it wasn't a loss. Anyway, when I got there they were praying, and from what I remember seeing, all of the women except one were wearing veils over their hair until they finished praying. I thought Paul said that a woman's veil was already her hair. The church I sometimes go to now doesn't do that. Here's the rhetorical question, why are there so many denominations with different customs like that? I don't know, I just think that if people went by the Word then everyone would pretty much come to the same ways of doing things. This is why I don't like to be associated with a particular denomination. They were really nice, though, I'll give them that.
Anyway, the thing that has been on my mind was something that I read also from Paul's writings a while ago. He wrote about order during church meetings, and said that women should remain silent during church because it's unlawful for them to speak there, that they instead should ask their husbands at home whatever they wanted to ask. You know, I understand that the Lord created man first, and then when the fall happened He said that man would have dominion over the woman. It's just that I feel like this particular thing is like another law. In my life I've met so many women and young ladies that were so... level-headed. More so than most men of their age, and because of that I always felt like I got along better with them than with men. Throughout high school and university, for instance. I'm not talking about "let's go shopping/that dress is so cute/giggling all the time", no. For example, I found their jokes genuinely funny, and we talked about our lives at home and our families, and they were even a good influence to me in my studies. With most of my male friends it was like... video games... and other worldly pleasures, and really loud and sometimes rude jokes, and I just found that a little boring at times.
I'm not saying I believe that what Paul wrote on that didn't come from God. It's the Word, it's the Word. But if I'm being completely honest, the first time I read it, it felt a little harsh to say that they should be silent and instead ask their husbands at home. I just would like to understand a bit better why the Lord wants it to be that way, other than what He said in the beginning. Maybe one of you has something else to add, or maybe one of you also had the same question before, so I'm posting this here.
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annemc
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Post by annemc on Jun 11, 2014 23:20:44 GMT
Hi brother John!
I read your article with great interest and looked forward to the answers from all the wonderful women on this site.
Silence.
Eerie.
So here goes with my two bob's worth (as we say in Aussie!)
As you say: "It's the Word. It's the Word!" A friend of mine often quoted:"God's Word says it. I believe it. That settles it."
Women, scripturally, are to be silent in church.
Some years backs my husband did a study on the subject. He put up two large sheets of paper. One was to list all the things that women can do, and the other for all the things they cannot do. The 'can-do' list was as long as your arm. But when he asked the group to list the things women are forbidden to do, there was only one thing.
Women are to remain silent in the church.
Bless you, John.
Anne
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 0:26:29 GMT
Thanks, Anne! You're right. It is the Word. That sounds like an interesting study that your husband made. Well, I'm sure that the Lord wanted it to be this way for a reason. I guess I just need to get accustomed to this one through prayer.
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Post by shiloh on Jun 12, 2014 1:25:10 GMT
The silence is deafening, isn't it? LOL! No, I just sat back down.
Oddly, my daughter said something similar when she first started reading the Word and she said, "Paul was a male chauvanist, wasn't he?" She was only in 4th grade at the time and I didn't even know she knew that term.
Keep in mind God's plan for the family. He created it and loves the family. In our society now, we don't capture it in the biblical sense.
A man is to love his wife as Jesus so loves the church. A woman is to honor her husband. That seems far fetched to many now, but God created Eve so that man could have a help mate.
This does not excuse physical or mental abuse on either partner's side. Sadly, some see it as an excuse to abuse their spouse. We have to mutually respect eachother. There ARE times when God says "RUN!"
Most times, we (in our household) make decisions together and there are a lot of times where I take my husband's lead. We are different and have different capabilities. He'll ask for my opinion as well as I do his. I leave the big decisions up to him.
Now, if people honored and loved their spouses as the Lord meant it to be, there wouldn't be any dissent.
I think there are women that are greatly gifted in teaching the Biblical Word. I've seen some who aren't. That goes both ways...men and women. I used to go to an all women's Bible study and we strictly stuck to scripture. Our leader was a great teacher. She always stressed to stick to the Word.
There's more I wanted to say but I forgot it now....I'll think of it later.
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Post by Benjamin on Jun 12, 2014 1:39:13 GMT
I can absolutely relate to this.
I've always tended to get along better with women than men, for those precise reasons.
As far as the question of women in the church is concerned, there are two valid responses. The first, you've already received. The second, I think, is as follows:
we often frame this question in terms of rights. "Does a woman have the right to preach / teach in the church", and so on.
I think that question misses the point.
It's not about rights; it's about roles.
I work in Children's Services. I handle finances, work hands-on with the children, manage a centre, and so on... but at the end of the day, I'm not the one who approves the budget or allocates funding. Is that a violation of my rights? Of course not - it's just not my role, where I work. It's not that I'm not physically, emotionally, or spiritually capable of doing those things, it's just not what I'm employed for.
Likewise in the church, men and women have distinct roles. Are women capable of teaching? Absolutely! ...but are they given the role of teaching men? Well, on that, Scripture is clear. No. It's not a reflection on their ability, nor is it a statement of inferiority or anything along those lines; it's just "not what they're employed for". God specifically gave that role to men.
It really is that simple.
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Post by shiloh on Jun 12, 2014 3:09:57 GMT
Yes, it really IS that simple and that's a very good analogy, Benjamin. However, that doesn't mean if a young man or older comes to me and asks me about certain things in Scripture that I wouldn't try to guide them in the Word. Personally, I'd rather have it so that women don't teach but there's also men that I think shouldn't be in teaching or leadership roles. A man as a teacher has a lot on his shoulders. Does that make every man who teaches right in his views? Absolutely not. I have learned very much from women who taught and were strictly within the Word as far as their teachings went.
Ahhhh heck! I'd rather just shut up and listen in church when it all comes down to it. But if someone is in error, they should be corrected and I think it is often better for another man to address and do the correcting.
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Post by shiloh on Jun 12, 2014 8:22:44 GMT
That's because you're both very brilliant young men....hahahahaha..I'm so sorry but you guys walked right into that one. I couldn't help it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 11:34:05 GMT
Benjamin, that provided a new way to understand it for me. Thanks! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense.
Shiloh, you have some good points too. Thanks! It sounds short, but I have nothing to add to either posts. Lolol
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Post by shiloh on Jun 12, 2014 18:49:25 GMT
Of COURSE, I do. That's because I'm a woman...lol..okay, I'll stop.
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Post by elizabeth on Jun 12, 2014 20:19:03 GMT
Thank you for this thread, it has clarified things for me and Shiloh, you have been your perceptive and entertaining self  |
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Post by treasurebug on Jul 8, 2014 21:59:33 GMT
I'm not sure it's a total command for women to be simply and utterly silent in the church because 1 Corinthians 11:15 mentions women prophesying in church without condemning that they are doing so, so there must be more to the issue --- like women having a disruptive and domineering spirit during services. It sounds like the Corinthians were having a bit of a chaos problem (and surely weren't the last ones to). As a child I couldn't imagine why Paul would say something that sounded so sexist, but these days I have been in some situations which would have certainly called for Paul to admonish some to be silent, and for good reason. :-(
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Jul 8, 2014 22:40:42 GMT
Hi treasurebug! I think that you are correct. Paul was trying to give us a blueprint to an orderly service. God did give us a pattern as men being the leaders and yet there was Deborah who was a judge of Israel.
Great observation, I hope you will continue to share with us.
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Post by morningstar on Jul 8, 2014 23:05:51 GMT
Couldn't have explained it better myself Treasurebuggie..(not a typo, love your cute username & Avatar)..LOL... Sad to say that for the most part I've seen the women having to take role of the man when it comes to guiding and upbringing their Children in God's Word..and I guess that also because there are so many Single mom's now than there ever was. But even in households where both parents are Christians, some men don't take the leadership roles that is outlined in Scripture. Just my thoughts, but that is what I have seen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:33:05 GMT
Hi, TreasureBug! Nice to meet you, I'm the one they call John. Who's "they"? I don't know either, but isn't that usually what they say?  Thanks for dropping your opinion here! |
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Post by treasurebug on Jul 9, 2014 1:07:18 GMT
hi everyone! lol @ treasurebuggie. That's what I call my cat, she's my buggy-rabbit. I have about a million names for her so she's probably always having an identity crisis. I like what you have to say though, morningstar, not that I like that it is the way it is but you speak the truth as well.
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Jul 9, 2014 1:35:21 GMT
 OK treasure bug, I looked it up. This is what a buggy-rabbit cat looks like. Very cute. |
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Post by shiloh on Jul 9, 2014 3:57:04 GMT
LOL..EPD, that's so cute....she also calls her kittie a little Crustacean. The names she comes up with are always so funny. It cracks me up and they're so spontaneous.
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Post by treasurebug on Jul 9, 2014 19:58:00 GMT
lol too funny, peaceinthestorm!!
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 10, 2014 0:04:09 GMT
I'm not sure it's a total command for women to be simply and utterly silent in the church because 1 Corinthians 11:15 mentions women prophesying in church without condemning that they are doing so, so there must be more to the issue --- like women having a disruptive and domineering spirit during services. It sounds like the Corinthians were having a bit of a chaos problem (and surely weren't the last ones to). As a child I couldn't imagine why Paul would say something that sounded so sexist, but these days I have been in some situations which would have certainly called for Paul to admonish some to be silent, and for good reason. :-( I agree, but with a caveat. I expressed earlier my conviction that Paul is speaking not about rights, but about roles. It's important to remember that the role of a prophet is distinct from that of a preacher. When Paul speaks of roles within the church, he expressly says "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12). This isn't speaking broadly, of all circumstance, but specifically, in terms of communal worship of the Lord. Prophecy, along with many of the other gifts, is certainly part of the Church body, but didn't occupy a space in the communal worship. Much of our confusion over these things stems too from the fact that we view Church in a very Western, post-Constantine type of way. We need to remember that the Church for the first three centuries didn't meet in buildings or have singular leaders. In fact, the Bible refers to the fact that churches began to have a single 'overseer' as "nicolaitans", and referred to that practice as "a doctrine I [the Lord] hate" (Revelation 2/3). So... we need to keep that in mind. Church structure and order was very different, and far more distributed, rather than top-down. I know that many have looked at this verse from Timothy as being oppressive, but I think it speaks again to the roles that men and women were created for. Paul reinforces this point by specifically referencing the created order in 1 timothy 2:13, stating that this is "because Adam was created first, then Eve." Likewise Paul doesn't say that women are to be silent, but that women are to *LEARN* in silence - indicating again that this same teaching role is being occupied by a man at the time. It's clearly that specific role and relationship that is being referred to, and not church as a whole. I'd write more, but work calls! |
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Post by shiloh on Jul 10, 2014 0:35:55 GMT
That would be ideal if those roles applied today. Sadly, as Margaret said, families are torn apart, women have to take on teaching roles, many men don't lead in the sense that God meant it to be.
It's the same principle as "women are to honor their husbands". Some take that out of context and use it as an excuse to batter their wives. They also seem to ignore the verse where it says that men are to love their wives as Christ so loves the church. These verses and others can be misused.
"*LEARN* in silence". What exactly does that mean? Does that mean a woman isn't to ask questions or even correct when there is scriptural error being taught?
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Post by treasurebug on Jul 10, 2014 1:24:29 GMT
I especially like what you have to say about the way we view things, Benjamin. I think that's very important to keep in mind and is often a pitfall when it comes to understanding some scriptures. Our world and culture today is vastly different, and it can be really difficult to understand some passages when you are only looking at them in light of our own modern world and culture today. If Paul had to tell them they need to learn in silence, it sounds like maybe they were too busy talking instead of listening, for to listen and understand, one must first be silent! As James 1:19 says, we must all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry. I get the impression there wasn't a whole lot of James 1:19 going down in the Corinth. To be honest, doesn't it seem in our nature that many of us women are too quick to speak, and many of our men almost too slow to speak, so much so that you have to ask them if they are even listening? Like, Hellooo? LOL, just teasing.
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Post by shiloh on Jul 10, 2014 10:37:38 GMT
Not me.  |
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Post by Benjamin on Jul 10, 2014 11:26:29 GMT
"*LEARN* in silence". What exactly does that mean? Does that mean a woman isn't to ask questions or even correct when there is scriptural error being taught? That's not my suggestion, no. My suggestion is that learning is the flipside to teaching; and that the role of teacher, therefore, is part of the male responsibility to the church in the context of the church meeting. As for asking questions etc., I wouldn't really consider that to be part of a church meeting context anyway - would you? |
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Post by shiloh on Jul 10, 2014 18:32:30 GMT
No, I wouldn't. I was just wondering what context that should be taken in.
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Thanks for dropping your opinion here!