Post by Leeza on Dec 22, 2014 7:45:58 GMT
Romans 9 talks a lot about predestination. There are teachings that predestination means that some people are predestined or elected to go to heave, and some are predestined to go into destruction, as it is stated in Romans 9:22-24:
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So looking at these scriptures, it does seem like some are meant to go to heaven and some are predestined to go into destruction. Judas and the anti-Christ in Revelation 13 comes to mind. But what about free will? We read this in Ezekiel 18:31-32:
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Looking at these scriptures, man's free will is evident. If he repents, he will live. So if he was one of the "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" as stated in Romans 9:22, then it wouldn't matter if he repented or not, he would be doomed to destruction, right? So it looks like man's free will is evident in these verses.
So without going into Calvinism and the principles of TULIP, what does Romans 9:22 mean when it says that the Lord endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And what about the vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory? Did the Lord hand pick some to be elect, and some to be vessels of destruction in order to fulfill His will on earth?
I know that John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Again, when you see the words, "whosoever", doesn't that mean everyone who desires to come to the Lord will have the ability to do so?
But what about Romans 9:21 that says, Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Doesn't that say that the Lord creates some for honor and some for dishonor? Or that the one who is made for honor goes to heaven and the ones created for dishonor are destined for destruction?
Or like in Romans 9:10-12 which says: "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
So what does this mean? The bible says that Jacob and Esau, not being yet born nor having done good or evil, that one was loved and one was hated. Again, it says that the purpose of God is according to those who are elect by Him would stand, implicating that the ones who were not chosen to election would fall. Am I reading this correctly? One was loved and the other was hated. Was that according to God's foreknowledge who He would pick to love and hate, even before they did good or evil? Or was this scripture not talking about Jacob or Esau at all, but rather that being symbolic of Israel and Edom?
I don't mean to stir up a can of worms here, but I do have some legitimate concerns and questions. I am going back and forth on this, looking at various scriptures, and I can see both sides of the coin....being the doctrine of predestination and also of free will to choose. But which one is it? Are some hand picked by God to be saved, and some are predestined for destruction? Or how much free will do we really have in the matter? No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Does God draw some and not others?
Any help in sorting all of this out and for understanding these passages in context would be appreciated.
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So looking at these scriptures, it does seem like some are meant to go to heaven and some are predestined to go into destruction. Judas and the anti-Christ in Revelation 13 comes to mind. But what about free will? We read this in Ezekiel 18:31-32:
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Looking at these scriptures, man's free will is evident. If he repents, he will live. So if he was one of the "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" as stated in Romans 9:22, then it wouldn't matter if he repented or not, he would be doomed to destruction, right? So it looks like man's free will is evident in these verses.
So without going into Calvinism and the principles of TULIP, what does Romans 9:22 mean when it says that the Lord endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And what about the vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory? Did the Lord hand pick some to be elect, and some to be vessels of destruction in order to fulfill His will on earth?
I know that John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Again, when you see the words, "whosoever", doesn't that mean everyone who desires to come to the Lord will have the ability to do so?
But what about Romans 9:21 that says, Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Doesn't that say that the Lord creates some for honor and some for dishonor? Or that the one who is made for honor goes to heaven and the ones created for dishonor are destined for destruction?
Or like in Romans 9:10-12 which says: "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
So what does this mean? The bible says that Jacob and Esau, not being yet born nor having done good or evil, that one was loved and one was hated. Again, it says that the purpose of God is according to those who are elect by Him would stand, implicating that the ones who were not chosen to election would fall. Am I reading this correctly? One was loved and the other was hated. Was that according to God's foreknowledge who He would pick to love and hate, even before they did good or evil? Or was this scripture not talking about Jacob or Esau at all, but rather that being symbolic of Israel and Edom?
I don't mean to stir up a can of worms here, but I do have some legitimate concerns and questions. I am going back and forth on this, looking at various scriptures, and I can see both sides of the coin....being the doctrine of predestination and also of free will to choose. But which one is it? Are some hand picked by God to be saved, and some are predestined for destruction? Or how much free will do we really have in the matter? No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Does God draw some and not others?
Any help in sorting all of this out and for understanding these passages in context would be appreciated.
