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Post by Leeza on Dec 28, 2014 22:12:08 GMT
Here are my questions:
1. Is the Book of Revelation written in chronological order?
2. How can people be saved during the tribulation without the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, since the "Restrainer" is going to be taken away at the rapture, and the Holy Spirit is the One Who draws people to Christ?
3. Are people going to be beheaded BEFORE or AFTER the Great Tribulation? Or during the entire tribulation?
Okay, here is what I am grappling with: If the Book of Revelation was written in chronological order, then the rapture takes place in Revelation 4:1, then the Bema Seat Judgement immediately takes place, and the crowns have been given in verse 10, where the 24 elders have cast their crowns at the throne.
Then in Revelation 20:4, it says that those who were beheaded and didn't take the mark of the beast lived and reigned with Christ during the millennium. So that tells me that the ones that were beheaded took place AFTER the Great Tribulation began, if the Bible is in chronological order, because the Abomination of Desolation takes place in Revelation 13, which sets off the Great Tribulation.
However, here is the part where it looks like the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Revelation 7:14 talks about the people who came out of the tribulation and washed their robes by the blood of the Lamb. It looks like these people made it through the tribulation without taking the mark or being beheaded. Chapter 7 is before all the judgments takes place, and then it looks like the Book of Revelation is NOT written in Chronological order.
Any thoughts?
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Dec 28, 2014 22:50:43 GMT
I believe Revelation is in chronological order. About Revelation 7:14, this is what Herbert Melville Munson says in his free online commentary on Revelation:
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Post by Leeza on Dec 28, 2014 23:19:19 GMT
I believe Revelation is in chronological order. About Revelation 7:14, this is what Herbert Melville Munson says in his free online commentary on Revelation:
linkThank you, Peace. I went back and looked up Revelation 6:11: Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.I never picked up on the fact that they were the same group. So if that is the case, then these martyrs were killed during the first half of the tribulation, which answers my question #3. |
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Post by Benjamin on Dec 28, 2014 23:29:51 GMT
Here are my questions: 1. Is the Book of Revelation written in chronological order? 2. How can people be saved during the tribulation without the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, since the "Restrainer" is going to be taken away at the rapture, and the Holy Spirit is the One Who draws people to Christ?
3. Are people going to be beheaded BEFORE or AFTER the Great Tribulation? Or during the entire tribulation?
I'd say that Revelation is GENERALLY in Chronological order - but there are chapters contained within it that serve as 'interludes' of a sort, where the perspective shifts, and you're given a wider view of what is taking place. Chapter 12 would be a good example of this. John has seen the Seal Judgments, the Trumpets and the Witnesses, and then suddenly we're looking into the heavens and receiving an overview of the Great Conflict - in which all the ages are compressed into a single verse, and we see a focused view of the war between the Seed of the Serpent and the Son of Man. Regarding the people of Chapter 7 - they have quite literally come out of the Tribulation, having been killed in the Fifth Seal judgment. Their number will still be added to, at this point, particularly in the latter part of the Tribulation, when the Beast goes on his rampage. This latter number will be beheaded - those here in Chapter 7 not necessarily so. Now, as far as the Holy Spirit goes... It's not that He is gone completely - it's that his role as the restrainer is ended. With that said, however, I think that the form of salvation offered during the Tribulation will be more similar to Old Testament salvation than new. We have to keep in mind that when the Rapture occurs, the Church Age is over. We receive the Holy Spirit as a sign and seal of the covenant made in Christ. Those who come to Him in the Tribulation will be saved under a completely different covenant. You can see this in Revelation itself; the elders (who represent the Church) are given the right to be "A Kingdom and Priests" (5:10), while the martyrs in chapter 7 receive an entirely different destiny, serving in His temple day and night. This first destiny, "A Kingdom and Priests" is given to the Church alone - not even to Israel. A Kingdom, because we will reign with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom, and Priests, because our body is a temple for the Holy Spirit, and we will minister as such in that Kingdom. I hope that helps a little. If you need more info, you won't find a better commentary on Revelation than Amy Van Gerpen's. She and I disagree on one or two things, but none of them major (she agrees with me on the Rider of the White Horse!). I'd certainly recommend her (ridiculously in-depth) work. www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/revelation_intro.php |
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Post by Leeza on Dec 29, 2014 3:05:46 GMT
Thank you so much, Benjamin. That was very helpful. Yes, I was actually thinking that myself when I was asking the question. I just wasn't sure how that would play out, since the "Restrainer" would be gone when the rapture takes place, ending the church age at that point. And thank you for that link to Amy's website. I always enjoyed her posts over at the other website. I will enjoy going into it in depth. I like the charts she made. Since I am a visual person, these are very helpful to me. I'm glad she she agrees with us about the rider of the white horse.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 15:05:57 GMT
Nothing to add except I enjoyed this discussion. I had been thinking of studying Revelations and glad I now have two additional places to research
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Post by Gr8tful on Jan 11, 2015 17:21:44 GMT
I still can't use the new thread feature so I suspect it's the kindle. Will try on computer tomorrow which I'm sure will work. In the meantime I will have to derail threads! But this one goes well w/my question. SO as I said I go to a weekly Bible study that I enjoy - it is a deep study on Rev. I don't feel I need to agree w/everything as we all have our opinions on things. As long as doctrinal/fundamental issues r aligned I'm ok w/it. We got to the issue re: if a person left behind becomes saved - which I believe it will be more like OT also - that IF that person is 'weak' and takes the mark the one teaching said they will still be saved in the end. That they will have to go thru the trib and all the torment but when it's over they will be w/Him for eternity. That did not sit well w/me as well as others. The discussion went on for 3 wks - which I missed one session. I decided to believe what I believe and lv it at that. I get the reasoning but also feel to teach that could be setting up some to believe there's a loop hole and could crumble under pressure and take the mark only to find out that was wrong. Does that make sense? What r all your thoughts on this?
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Post by Leeza on Jan 11, 2015 18:19:06 GMT
I totally do not believe that a person will go to heaven after taking the mark of the beast. The Bible says nothing about anyone going to heaven after taking the mark. Scripture is our authority. If it's not in the Word, then I would not take the speculations of man seriously.
If a person would take the mark of the beast, then that would mean that they valued their own lives more than pledging allegiance to Christ. Being afraid of being beheaded would be understandable, but I believe that a Christian would have he power of the Holy Spirit to be strong enough not to take the mark. If you had an uneasy feeling about what was said in your Bible study, I would pay attention to that. It's the Holy Spirit giving you a red flag.
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Post by elizabeth on Jan 11, 2015 18:33:45 GMT
I agree with you gr8tful, I think it's pretty clear that if you take the mark of the beast, you are lost. Here's a couple of scriptures regarding the mark of the beast:
and
emphasis mine
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Post by Gr8tful on Jan 11, 2015 18:57:25 GMT
Thank Elizabeth for the scriptures. I agree re: them as well the way I understand it u can't have 2 seals at a time? Either the seal of God or the anti - Not both. The woman treacing it is a wonderful Christian woman who has been in ministry for yrs. She's one who will admit if she doesn't know the answer to something and will stand corrected if she is wrong. She is going by Dr Constibul (sp?) And his study and notes. She knows him and called him re: our? 's on the subject. Basically his stance is the shed blood of Christ is still enough even during trib and being weak by taking the mark. The thought is we all know Christians who r weak who aren't strong enough at times to stand. Like I said I get their point but don't agree w/it. Yeah Leeza u may be right about red flags. There have been things that have not sit well but I feel this person has a heart of gold. I will have to pray on this. Thanks!
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Post by shiloh on Jan 12, 2015 0:19:32 GMT
Yes, I completely agree on this, Leeza and Liz. Rev. 14:9-11 is very clear on that:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
They will know what they are doing and will willingly worship the Beast.
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Post by Gr8tful on Jan 12, 2015 1:32:39 GMT
Yes Shiloh that's a very good scripture re: this topic also. I have never heard this type of 'theory' or whatever it is and I as well as others were kinda floored. Unfortunately there was one person w/a gazillion ?'s and comments and took over the whole discussion so the next wk they spent the whole time discussing it but I missed that one. The following wk touched on it a bit but think everyone was ready to move on. Some of us don't agree w/it but I plan to keep going for now they r a wonderful group of women. BUT if more comes up I doubt I will continue. I have stepped out of this type of fellowship for a good 7-8yrs and decided it was time to start again w/baby steps. So we'll see how it goes. I appreciate all your thoughts and input!
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Post by shiloh on Jan 12, 2015 3:06:57 GMT
Did you belong to a women's Bible study? I did once and really enjoyed it. It ended up breaking apart though. Not because of any hard feelings or any dissension in the group. It was just that some moved out of state, etc. Of course we always took turns bring donuts, etc.
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Post by Gr8tful on Jan 12, 2015 18:14:43 GMT
Shiloh, I'm not sure if u r asking if I belong to any other bible study's besides this one or if I use to go to bible study before. So I'll answer this way. I only belong to this one women's bible study at the moment. Was very much a church goer for yrs. and very involved in them. The one church we went to for yrs broke up completely due to the pastor's fling w/a baby Christian. The next church we went to we went for yrs also and tho it was large it too broke up eventually and went down to just a few. It's such a shame. It's sad to see all the ugly that comes up during such times. When you see churches getting all trendy, doing the latest popular programs and all that, you can just see God is no longer in it, no longer the Head and soon it all falls away. I have been churchless for yrs now and after we moved to a smaller town about 8 yrs ago I just didn't try to get in anywhere. This group is from the church my granddaughter as well as my son and his family go to. They r a great group of women but the church itself has been going thru their own break up of sorts so I feel that I can at least be there for them as one who has 'been there'. But also for the fellowship, I know it's time for me to do that again and this is a start.
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Post by shiloh on Jan 13, 2015 0:50:29 GMT
Yeah. That's what I meant to ask. Gr8tful. I can completely relate to what you are saying. I think those in leadership positions in the church should step down until fully restored. I think many of us feel like the church in the wilderness. You are far from alone in the way you think and feel. Have you read the book by Chip Brogden, "The Church in the Wilderness"?
Here's a small excerpt from The Church in the Wilderness:
What It Means to Follow Jesus Outside of Organized Religion
by Chip Brogden
Among those with spiritual discernment, there is an uncomfortable, embarrassing difference between the power and practice of the New Testament Church and the religious organizations and denominations that have since come into existence. What began as a living, Christ-centered faith has evolved into something far removed from what Jesus intended when He declared: “I will build My Church (Ekklesia), and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
What IS this Church that Jesus is building? What does it look like? Where is it located? Who is in charge of it? Do the religious institutions and leaders of today really represent the faith that was first given to us by Christ, taught by the apostles and confirmed by the Holy Spirit? Or has Christianity been replaced by “Churchianity”?
Some say God is calling us to restore the Church to what it used to be. They believe the answer lies in preaching, repentance, reformation, and working from within the system to repair it.
But a growing number of Christians say that the Church as it exists today was never God’s intention in the first place. They have forsaken the “old wineskins” and religious structures of Christendom to follow Jesus in the simplicity that the early Christians followed Him. They are not called to fix the system, but to come out of it altogether. They still love the people, and are concerned for the people. They do miss something of the fellowship they once thought they had. And sometimes they miss it so much that they do go and visit other churches, trying to fit in, trying to find a place. But try as they might, something in them just cannot go along with it anymore.
Who are these people? They are part of a growing number of Christians that make up a “Church in the Wilderness” – followers of Jesus from all over the world who love God, and love God’s people, but reject the trappings of Sunday Morning Religion. This mass exodus of people from the religious system is not only inevitable, it is the fulfillment of prophecy, and sets the stage for “the final chapter in Christianity” – when Jesus suddenly returns to reward the Overcomers, judge the hypocrites, and establish His Kingdom on earth.
In his newest book, “The Church in the Wilderness: What It Means to Follow Jesus Outside of Organized Religion”, Chip tears down the sacred cows and religious traditions of “Churchianity” and paints a picture of what Jesus really wants. This book includes many of his most popular essays as well as some brand new material never released.
If you still attend church, you’ll be confronted and challenged to consider a different point of view. If you don’t attend church, you’ll be encouraged to know you are not alone. But regardless of what you believe, you’ll have your eyes opened to a spiritual vision of “church” the way Jesus meant for it to be.
theschoolofchrist.org/books/the-church-in-the-wilderness/
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Post by gr8tful1 on Jan 13, 2015 17:13:19 GMT
You are absolutely correct in the leadership needing to step down until fully restored and healing and forgiveness has occurred. Pride keeps a lot of that from happening tho. No I haven't heard of that book. I will look into getting it, sounds like I could really use it! I know I'm not alone in this yet sometimes can't help but feel that I am. Again since moving I kinda let myself be 'isolated' and have not got to know many people. I think I just needed that for a time but now's the time to fellowship again. The times being as they are and the news is non stop, shocking, frustrating,prophetic,etc makes it harder to do this since it's all so 'numbing'. I've noticed that websites like this one has less and less people posting these days, it's almost like we're all just 'shell shocked' or something! There's nothing more to say it's so unreal! Seems people are just 'shutting down' or just waiting to see where do we go from here. Thanks again for sharing about the book, I'm going to look for it!
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Post by shiloh on Jan 13, 2015 19:03:34 GMT
In a huge sense, I find this place to be a refuge where we can all fellowship. It's a small church online and that's the only difference. We can fellowship with people we wouldn't normally be able to from other countries and states. We can exchange ideas or thoughts on scripture verses, etc. One thing I know is that all of our hearts are toward the Lord and even though we may have a different take on some scriptures, we all respect each other's views, even though we may disagree at times. A lot of times, other peoples views make me think and many have good points. I do understand where you are coming from in the sense of feeling alone and isolated. Sometimes, we need solitude and I agree that many are shell shocked. But we were told these things would come to pass and I look at in the sense that our redemption draws near. It's time for us to look up and keep encouraging one another. I don't think any of us will be arguing our points on scripture when we all go up together. |
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Post by gr8tful1 on Jan 13, 2015 19:36:10 GMT
Yeah,respecting ea others views tho we may disagree I have learned is the best way to be. And you're right, other views make me think, do deeper studies and all that. Such as the view I originally wrote about re: being saved w/the mark. That really got me looking into things. It's good to remind oneself why we believe what we believe. That time came for me to really look at what I believed vs what I had been taught and was opening eyeing to learn much that I had been taught really wasn't scriptural, it was religion. It was freeing and Christ became so real at that point. And His love and mercy was SO deep! I didn't understand that before, it was more being afraid of messing up or doing something wrong. To finally see how much He loved me was the greatest discovery! Isn't that gonna be great when we're w/Him and we understand everything! It will be like 'duh'! why didn't I see that then?! But yes, time to look up and keep encouraging, even tho it's so very dark, we know the times and we should be excited even with all the ugly, sadness these days. At least for now, we r free to fellowship still!!!
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Post by shelayne on Jan 16, 2015 13:51:45 GMT
I think that those who teach that "if a Christian is weak" or "If a Christian parent needs to feed their starving child, God will forgive that they take the Mark" completely miss the mark (pardon the pun). It is NOT just a little barcode, chip, tattoo or whatever to conduct commerce, it is a willing and knowing REJECTION of Christ and is tied to WORSHIP of the Beast. There will be no one "tricked" into taking the Mark, and the Bible is clear that those who do, are condemned. This is why there are going to be multitudes of martyrs from the Great Tribulation. They refuse to worship the Beast and his image; they do not take the Mark. It is just like a believer, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, cannot be also indwelt with demons. There is no communion between Light and darkness. I will stand on Scripture. I am safe there.  |
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Post by shiloh on Jan 16, 2015 17:06:00 GMT
Well said, Shelayne!!! You summed that up in a nutshell. It's the truth.
I can really relate to that gr8tful. I spent way too much time fearing I would "mess up". In a sense, it was earning my way. I think many of us are conditioned to think that way from our 'religious' or denominational backgrounds.
We can't earn our way and even what we think are our good deeds are nothing but filthy rags to God. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not condoning sin. I'm just saying that we all fail in one sense or another and it is true freedom to know that Jesus paid for all of our sins- past, present and future. What a wonderous an glorious God we serve.
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Post by Gr8tful on Jan 16, 2015 18:49:59 GMT
A BIG AMEN!!!! to both of you!
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Post by Benjamin on Jan 16, 2015 23:34:40 GMT
I think that those who teach that "if a Christian is weak" or "If a Christian parent needs to feed their starving child, God will forgive that they take the Mark" completely miss the mark (pardon the pun). It is NOT just a little barcode, chip, tattoo or whatever to conduct commerce, it is a willing and knowing REJECTION of Christ and is tied to WORSHIP of the Beast. There will be no one "tricked" into taking the Mark, and the Bible is clear that those who do, are condemned. This is why there are going to be multitudes of martyrs from the Great Tribulation. They refuse to worship the Beast and his image; they do not take the Mark. It is just like a believer, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, cannot be also indwelt with demons. There is no communion between Light and darkness. I will stand on Scripture. I am safe there. I'd agree with this. I think the worship element is particularly important. The Mark isn't just something that allows people to buy and sell - that's only half of the picture. Taking the mark is essentially taking upon yourself the name and identity of the beast. It's an indication of OWNERSHIP. Some Biblical Scholars have suggested that the Mark is the devil's attempt to "create man in his image". That may or may not be the case, but I think Scripture is clear that the process is irreversible, whatever it may be. It certainly isn't something as simple as an RFID chip. |
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