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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 2:50:26 GMT
and I would like a question answered.lo and behold
Whose determination of the canon of Scripture is correct? Whose canon (e.g. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Ethiopian) enjoys the best evidentiary support? E.g. internal and external attestation.
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Post by morningstar on Feb 11, 2015 5:07:13 GMT
Welcome John to our Forum..Happy you joined our group...Excellent question. Being that this question would require a very lengthy reply, a good solid resource and an excellent theologian is Jack Kelley, here is his answer to your question. I hope this will help, I'm sure other members will want to add their comments. God Bless you John I will be praying for you.
Jack Kelley The Books Of The Bible Bible Origins
Q. There are so many versions of the bible out, NKJ, NIV, etc to name just a few, and then there is the Catholic bible with the Apocrypha. How do we know that we have the right books in the bible? Maybe that’s why there are cults out there that state that the bible has been changed and by man. Could you explain why certain books are in our bible and why there are certain books that were not accepted and why is it that the Catholics have additional books that the Protestant world doesn’t? Are those “missing books” not the word of God?
A. Deciding which books were to be included in the Old Testament was done by senior priests based on general agreement that each book was authentic (written by the person identified as its author) and divinely inspired. This was completed about 425 BC.
The New Testament had pretty much come together by 150 AD but there continued to be discussion about a few books until about 400 AD. It was not officially canonized until the Council of Trent in the 1500’s. There were three basic criteria for inclusion.
1. Were the authors either eyewitnesses to the events they wrote about or at least directly taught about them by the Apostles? 2. Was each book’s teachings consistent with church practice and tradition? 3. Was each book already in general use by the church, and accepted as the Divine Word of God?
In both Old and New testaments, the books included had to be generally viewed as the work of divinely inspired writers who faithfully converted God’s Word into written form. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
The extra books in the Catholic Bible are called The Apocrypha. They were written after the Canon of the Hebrew Bible was complete. The word apocrypha means “hidden, or secret”. Due to their doubtful authenticity the word has come to mean “fraudulent, or forged” by some scholars.
Although some feel there are many more, The Apocrypha is normally made up of fourteen books which are found in Greek and Latin translations but never in the Hebrew Old Testament. When Jerome translated the Old Testament into Latin he refused to include them within the body of the book and established a separate section he named “The Apocrypha”. Only 11 of these are included in the Catholic Bible Today but all 14 can still be found in the Orthodox Bible.
The Apocrypha was removed from the Protestant Bible altogether at the time of the Reformation. Here are several reasons why many Christian authorities reject the writings of the Apocrypha:
1. The Apocrypha was never in the Hebrew Canon.
2. Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the New Testament writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha. (Jude mentioned Enoch, but Enoch was not the author of the books that bear his name.)
3. Josephus(a well-known historian from the Biblical era) excluded them from his list of sacred scripture. He felt they were lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin.
4. During the first four centuries there was no mention made of the Apocrypha in any catalogue or canonical book. They were believed to be slipped in during the fifth century. There are reputed to be 263 quotations and 370 allusions to the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them refers to the Apocryphal writings.
5. The books of the Apocrypha were never asserted to be divinely inspired or to possess divine authority in their contents.
6. No prophets were connected with these writings. Each book of the Old Testament was written by a man who was a prophet.
7. These books are replete with historical, geographical and chronological errors. In order to accept the Apocrypha one would have to reject the Old Testament narratives.
8. The Apocryphal doctrines and practices are contrary to the Canon of Scripture.
There is some historical insight to be gained from the Apocrypha, since they were written in the time between the Old and New Testaments. But extreme caution must be exercised. These books weren’t written by the people whose names are mentioned in their titles, and they are neither theologically nor historically accurate. You should test the things they say against other reliable sources before accepting them as valid.
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Me
Numbers' Donkey
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Post by Me on Feb 11, 2015 8:50:20 GMT
The title is I am thinking of becoming a Christian. However when I read your question you ask which religion or denomination is correct.
I think you are on the wrong track. The Early Church in the days of the first Apostles only knew about Jesus and Him Crucified. There is no need to go beyond the Bible for your answer.
There is only ONE Body of Christ (or Church)the Bible says.
EPH 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Those of us who are of Christ belong to the only True Church whose head is Christ Jesus.
EPH 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
One Salvation, one Church and One Lord and One Spirit and One Faith. ONLY ONE.
AC 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is
" `the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. '
AC 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
If you want to become a Christian you do not need to go past Jesus and you will find him in the Bible. Open your bible and read it. The gospels are all about Jesus and Acts all about the First Church. They all clearly will explain to you how to come into salvation and become a Christian.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 14:26:48 GMT
The title is I am thinking of becoming a Christian. However when I read your question you ask which religion or denomination is correct. I think you are on the wrong track. The Early Church in the days of the first Apostles only knew about Jesus and Him Crucified. There is no need to go beyond the Bible for your answer. There is only ONE Body of Christ (or Church)the Bible says. EPH 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Those of us who are of Christ belong to the only True Church whose head is Christ Jesus. EPH 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. One Salvation, one Church and One Lord and One Spirit and One Faith. ONLY ONE. AC 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " `the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. ' AC 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." If you want to become a Christian you do not need to go past Jesus and you will find him in the Bible. Open your bible and read it. The gospels are all about Jesus and Acts all about the First Church. They all clearly will explain to you how to come into salvation and become a Christian. Thanks for your response, but I still need to know "whose determination of the canon of Scripture is correct?", if I will ever even consider becoming Christian. I need evidence if I am to become Christian. I question things before I jump in.
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Post by Leeza on Feb 11, 2015 17:15:52 GMT
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 17:52:00 GMT
The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation in Scriptures I will be praying for your salvation, Leeza.
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Post by Leeza on Feb 11, 2015 18:22:23 GMT
Thank you, John, but I am already saved. I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 18. The reason I said that I would pray for your salvation is because you said that you were thinking of becoming a Christian, so I am hoping you will resolve your question about which canon of scripture is the most accurate and will ask Jesus into your heart, too. It's not about religion. It's about relationship with Jesus. He died for our sins and took the penalty of our sins on Himself in order for us to go to heaven.
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Post by Gr8tful on Feb 11, 2015 18:45:09 GMT
Welcome John. Good for you for looking into things first! When you say you are thinking about becoming a Christian you are saying you want to be a follower of Christ. To become a Christian is giving your life to Him. That's where you start. Read the Holy Bible and study up on the different canons and determine what you believe is truest. Any Bible with added scriptures I wouldn't read. And prayer is everything! Being a Christian is about a relationship with God. As you grow in your relationship you will have a better understanding and maturity to your question. Bottom line is it all starts at the cross and the resurrection. May God touch your eyes to see and give you a heart to understand!
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 18:46:56 GMT
Against the Reformers
St Alphonsus Mary De Liguori (1696-1787) Bishop and Doctor of the Church St. Francis Jerome, when he visited the parents of St. Alphonsus shortly after his birth, made this prophecy: "This child will be blessed with length of days; he shall not see death before his ninetieth year; he will be a bishop and will do great things for Jesus Christ." This prophecy certainly came true. One of the most accomplished of all the saints is Alphonsus Liguori. He was a lawyer in both civil and Church law before he dedicated his whole life to serving God. He was founder of a religious order, author of more than a hundred books, originator of modern moral theology, renowned preacher and confessor, bishop, musical composer and painter. For all of his 91 years on earth, he was also a man of prayer and deep personal holiness.
A CHURCH which is not one in its doctrine and faith can never be the True Church. Hence, because truth must be one, of all the different churches, only one can be the true one, and outside of that Church there is no salvation.
Now, in order to determine which is this one true Church, it is necessary to examine which is the Church first founded by Jesus Christ, for when this is ascertained, it must be confessed that this one alone is the true Church which, having once been the true Church must always have been the true Church and must forever be the true Church. For to this first Church has been made the promise of the Savior that the gates of Hell would never be able to overturn it [Matt 16:18].
In the entire history of religion, we find that the Roman Catholic Church alone was the first Church, and that the other false and heretical churches afterwards departed and separated from her. This is the Church which was propagated by the Apostles and afterwards governed by pastors whom the Apostles themselves appointed to rule over her. This character can be found only in the Roman Church, whose pastors descend securely by an uninterrupted and legitimate succession from the Apostles of the world [Matt 28:20].
The innovators themselves do not deny that the Roman Church was the first which Jesus Christ founded. However, they say that it was the true Church until the fifth century, or until it fell away, because it had been corrupted by the Catholics. But how could that Church fall which St. Paul calls the "pillar and ground of truth" [1 Timothy 3:15]? No, the Church has not failed. The truth is, that all the false churches, which have separated from the Roman Church, have fallen away and erred.
To convince all heretical sects of their error, there is no way more certain and safe than to show that our Catholic Church has been the first one founded by Jesus Christ. For, this being established, it is proved beyond all doubt that ours is the only true Church and that all the others which have left it and separated are certainly in error. But, pressed by this argument, the innovators have invented an answer. They say that the visible Church has failed, but not the invisible Church. But these doctrines are diametrically opposed to the Gospel.
The innovators have been challenged several times to produce a text of Sacred Scripture which would prove the existence of the invisible church they invented, and we are unable to obtain any such text from them. How could they adduce such a text when, addressing His Apostles whom He left as the propagators of His Church, Jesus said: "You cannot be hidden" [Matt 5:14].
Thus He has declared that the Church cannot help but be visible to everyone. The Church has been at all times, and will forever be, necessarily visible, so that each person may always be able to learn from his pastor the true doctrine regarding the dogmas of faith, to receive the Sacraments, to be directed in the way of salvation, and to be enlightened and corrected should he ever fall into error.
For, were the Church in any time hidden and invisible, to whom would men have recourse in order to learn what they are to believe and to do? It was necessary that the Church and her pastors be obvious and visible, principally in order that there might be an infallible judge, to resolve all doubts, and to whose decision everyone should necessarily submit. Otherwise, there would be no sure rule of faith by which Christians could know the true dogmas of faith and the true precepts of morality, and among the faithful there would be endless disputes and controversies. "And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine" [Eph 4:11-14].
But what faith can we learn from these false teachers when, in consequence of separating from the Church, they have no rule of faith. How often Calvin changed his opinions! And, during his life, Luther was constantly contradicting himself: on the single article of the Eucharist, he fell into thirty-three contradictions! A single contradiction is enough to show that they did not have the Spirit of God.
"He cannot deny Himself" [2 Timothy 2:13]. In a word, take away the authority of the Church, and neither Divine Revelation nor natural reason itself is of any use, for each of them may be interpreted by every individual according to his own caprice. Do they not see that from this accursed liberty of conscience has arisen the immense variety of heretical and atheistic sects? I repeat: if you take away obedience to the Church, there is no error which will not be embraced.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 18:48:53 GMT
[mod edit] Post removed, as it was not part of a discussion. There is nothing wrong with the questions it contained, but please do discuss them, don't just cut & paste.
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Post by Guest on Feb 11, 2015 18:55:33 GMT
The first book printed around 1455 by Gutenberg, the inventor of the printing press, was the Catholic Bible in Latin (Vulgate). It has been a best-seller ever since.
Completely false.......
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Post by Leeza on Feb 11, 2015 19:06:49 GMT
Excerpt from the second article you posted:
This is a false statement. Salvation has nothing to do with the "right and true religion", so to speak. (Which I don't believe there is such a thing as a "right and true religion".)
Jesus said, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me." Like I said before, salvation does not have anything to do with religion, it is a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2015 19:10:45 GMT
John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.yanni
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Post by Guest on Feb 11, 2015 19:18:37 GMT
John,that was the sacrifice I spoke about. It's all about him,not about us!
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Post by shiloh on Feb 11, 2015 19:29:50 GMT
I'm not one for long dissertations, but what do you have to lose by asking Christ into your heart and ignoring much of the doctrine of certain churches? I learned more after I left the Catholic faith (being brought up an raised in it) than I did my entire time there. The gospel was written so that it can be easily understood and we don't need to be looking to these so-called "saints" from the RCC. All of us who ask Jesus into our heart and look to Him as our Savior are considered saints. I believe there are saints from every denomination. Some are saved while others aren't. Salvation is personal and once saved, always saved is the true message. It doesn't matter what church you belong to. I find the tradition of it all to be quite overbearing. The Lord doesn't care what we do when we're inside a building and going along with tradition. It's what we do on the outside, when we leave that building that matters to Him. It's our heart He looks at.
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught. (Isaiah 29:13)
"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'' (Matt. 15:7-9)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 19:39:38 GMT
It comes down to making a choice, taking that leap of faith. Then read the Bible and learn all you can.
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Post by morningstar on Feb 11, 2015 20:04:46 GMT
John, you seem to be well versed in Catholic dogma...Your Thread subject was a bit deceptive "Thinking about becoming a Christian?"..I thought Catholics consider themselves Christians. Religion is a man made establishment in which it is man's way of working and walking a pathway to God...whereas true Christianity is God's way of reaching out towards man and opening a way through the Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ at the Cross, it is the gift of Grace through Faith alone and not of ourselves that we may boast..in other words a one on one Personal relationship with our Savior because He did it ALL at the Cross for each and everyone us..we cannot add to it nor take away from it..I think your motives for posting are other than what you led us to believe.
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Me
Numbers' Donkey
Posts: 151
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Post by Me on Feb 12, 2015 7:54:44 GMT
John do you want to find a Church or Salvation?
If you are looking for a man made Religious Institution that agrees with you I bow out.
Christ alone enables people to get into His Father's kingdom.
Plenty of Churches out there have fun and enjoy this earth because the Eternal Lake of Fire will be no picnic.
Don't play games with God. You can die any minute in this world. Don't wait until you find a Church that suits you to Repent and Believe in the Gospel of salvation and find your salvation.
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Me
Numbers' Donkey
Posts: 151
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Post by Me on Feb 12, 2015 7:57:15 GMT
MK 10:13 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
All the intellectual knowledge and theology is useless if your heart isn't like a little child. It doesn't take knowing every doctrine under the Sun to be Saved. It takes a humble submissive spirit. The gospel of salvation is so simple a child can get Saved.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2015 18:07:34 GMT
Melissa,
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Post by Gr8tful on Feb 12, 2015 22:16:24 GMT
Amen Melissa!
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 12, 2015 22:51:19 GMT
Excerpt from the second article you posted: This is a false statement. Salvation has nothing to do with the "right and true religion", so to speak. (Which I don't believe there is such a thing as a "right and true religion".) Jesus said, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me." Like I said before, salvation does not have anything to do with religion, it is a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "Religion that God accepts as pure and faultless is this: to help the fatherless and the widow."- James 1:27 Obviously, Lisa is right on this one - the point being that religion is all about what we DO... and it's not what we do that leads to salvation (quite the opposite), but what Christ has done. Salvation isn't found in the codices of a religion or the pages of a book. It isn't in works, or in deeds, in creeds or sacraments. Scripture says "there is a way that seems right to a man; but in the end, it leads to death." This is perhaps the best description of human nature you'll find anywhere. Isaiah says that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags"; and the word there, that word translated 'filthy rags', literally means 'soiled menstrual cloth'. To the Jew, nothing could possibly have been more unclean! The key to all of Scripture is this: It's not the words, or the pages, or the works written within it that save. It's the fact that the One who wrote it "was crucified, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day". It's HIS work that saves, and none other. We don't need the Bible to tell us those things - those few facts there are sufficient for salvation. So much so, in fact, that Paul resolved that while in Corinth, he would "preach nothing but Christ, and Him crucified." That's it. That's the message, that's the gospel. Paul defines that for us in 1 Corinthians 15: that Jesus Christ "was crucified, died, and was buried, and rose again on the third day." Done. End of story. So, if that is true, what is the benefit in Scripture? "All Scripture is God-breathed" (wow) "...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." Scripture wasn't given to us for salvation, per se - that's what Christ was given for. Scripture was given so that we could get the story straight... because mankind inevitably corrupts everything it touches. In contrast, "heaven and earth may pass away, but my Word will never pass away." So... no, you don't need the Bible to be saved. You need Christ for that. ...but the Bible opens up an entire world of truth, because, purely, simply, explicitly, it is the written manifestation of the Word of God, inextricably linked to the person and power of Jesus Christ Himself. Religion, then, should be an expression of gratitude that flows OUT of salvation. It is the result of salvation, not the means to it.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 13, 2015 1:27:10 GMT
This is what I grew up with - The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The part that I have highlighted in red is where I have a problem. We were taught that only those who are Catholic were the only ones that were truly saved. That is a great deception.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 13, 2015 1:41:57 GMT
well, the Apostle's Creed is actually perfectly valid theologically. The problem is that some of the terms it contains don't mean the same thing they used to.
"The Holy Catholic Church" has nothing to do with Catholicism. The word 'catholic' simply means 'universal', and THAT is the intent of the Apostle's Creed. Likewise 'the communion of saints' refers to the unity between those in Christ here on earth, and those in Christ in heaven, as members of one body... but that's not at all how the Roman Catholic Church uses the term, either.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 13, 2015 22:16:05 GMT
Well, we were taught that the Holy Roman Catholic church was the one and only true church and anyone that was of another church was going directly to hell. That's no joke. I had many friends that were not of the RCC who were believers and we were told that we shouldn't even associate with them. Trust me, having grown up in the RCC, I know what I'm talking about. They taught that if you weren't of the RCC, you were going to hell. Anyone can put any kind of theology in there that they want to. But, until you've been there and raised in it, you don't understand what was being taught. Grades schoolers do not understand the truth of Catholicism.
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