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Post by elizabeth on Mar 10, 2015 3:50:44 GMT
Gr8tful, Benjamin asked you to open a thread on this, but you hadn't, so I did. I love all the Samuel stories.
I may be twisted, but I have a bit of a soft spot for King Saul eventhough he was a terrible king, and disobedient to God. He just never got it.
He knew mediums were forbidden, yet went to one anyway. I can imagine how terrified Saul must have felt after hearing the word from this medium.
Was the medium actually able to call up Samuel? Charles Stanley, in one of his sermons said that Satan just conjured up an illusion of Satan. The thing is though that the Samuel figure knew that Saul and his sons, would die that day. Would Satan have known that?
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Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 5:34:05 GMT
Thank you Elizabeth for starting this for me!! I wanted to but was going to start it tomorrow as it is getting late. I'm so glad you got it started, again thank you!!! Very much appreciated. Yeah, isn't that a good question you have?! I really don't know what to think of it since it's so not what the Lord allows or puts up with. I Samuel 28:4- 4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.
You may want to finish the whole chapter. But if you notice Samuel, his spirit or whatever you call it, kept it about the Lord so he still spoke of the Lord and kept it about the Lord during this 'visit'. I just don't know what to make of it. Any and all input, thoughts, ideas, things you've read or whatever would be very appreciated! Again, I'm so pleased to be able to discuss w/those who aren't afraid to touch the subject. Thank you all for your help and a big thank to Shiloh for bringing this all up and Benjamin for allowing to be open to discussion! Looking forward to any thougts on this.
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Post by Benjamin on Mar 10, 2015 7:27:22 GMT
Was the medium actually able to call up Samuel? Charles Stanley, in one of his sermons said that Satan just conjured up an illusion of Satan. The thing is though that the Samuel figure knew that Saul and his sons, would die that day. Would Satan have known that? I would disagree with Stanley entirely. My reasoning is fairly simple. Look at the passage: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”...when this woman saw what she did, she was TERRIFIED. The text says that the woman saw Samuel (not Satan), and was afraid - and that Saul calmed her down. I'd suggest that the woman EXPECTED something demonic, and instead received a genuine apparition, sent by the Lord... and that is what threw her off. |
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Post by shiloh on Mar 10, 2015 15:02:34 GMT
I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.
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Post by Gr8tful on Mar 10, 2015 18:16:26 GMT
Well thank you Shiloh for your input!  Yes, it does seem like what Benjamin said, it was legit! Which seems to go against what God said to NOT do, to the point that no one even then was allowed to use mediums and such! YET, here is one being used. But a thought just occurred to me, when in Acts 16: 16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. I had thought it odd that Paul would tolerate the woman for a time. Her shouting to the people to listen to these men, made it appear that what they were doing was coming from the occult rather than through Christ. Since a known fortune teller was proclaiming, and standing with them and saying the things she said. It would seem that she was promoting them almost. I would think that Paul would have stopped her in her tracks the minute she tried to align herself with them, saying something along the lines of "oh no you will not get on the bandwagon, you evildoer!" or something like that! But instead he allowed her to do it for a time. I figure it was to show the power of God over even the best of the best 'of fortune tellers, mediums, etc". That the God they preached has power way over such spirits. Could that be somehow along the lines of Samuel? Again tho he was 'called out' to speak to him, he/his spirit did stay true to God and testified to what God would do. He spoke for God when God was not speaking to Saul at the time. (Hmmm, notice how both of the scriptures are re: Sauls? Interesting.) So the question is why would God allow a spirit to be called upon thru a medium? Could it be for the same reason? To show He is greater than the spirit world? That woman as Benjamin said, was terrified by what she saw!! This was NOT the usual dark world she was accustomed to, not even close! Did God allow to it for some reason? Apparently so. This is when Samuel first began I Samuel 3:19 The Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of Samuel’s words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord. 21 The Lord continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word. And this is when he ended: I Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land. So looking at it that way it would seem that God used Samuel who the people knew to be from God, one of His prophets, from youth and was revered as such. Saul was desperate it would seem to hear what God had to say to go as far as call upon a medium, the ones he had expelled, since God was not speaking to him or the prophets. A last resort I assume. God allowed the spirit of Samuel to appear, whom anyone present would recognize him to let him know what was to happen to him and his sons for what they had done. So for whatever reason, God allowed it, not sure why he didn't tell one of the current prophets or someone else instead? This is an odd scripture for sure, but re: the 2 Saul's and dealing w/fortune tellers, He does use the strangest things/people to accomplish His purposes. Just look at Rahab!  |
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 10, 2015 21:15:01 GMT
Oh yes Benjamin, how did the medium even know the disguised man was Saul, on top of everything else. Also, that's an interesting idea that she saw a true apparition rather than a demonic vision. I now believe what the medium saw was genuine, though it creeps me out a bit, the idea that someone can actually be summoned by a medium. I truly hope Samuel was the one and only time.
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Post by Benjamin on Mar 10, 2015 21:41:40 GMT
Well, that's just it, isn't it -
he wasn't summoned... He was SENT... by the Lord, not by the medium.
It must have been such a great judgment on Saul, too - to have Samuel actually show up would have terrified not only the witch, but the man who banned witchcraft in Israel.
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 10, 2015 23:08:03 GMT
Okay, I get it, thanks Benjamin. |
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Post by Leeza on Mar 11, 2015 4:11:55 GMT
I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole. That cracked me up! Well, I was always under the impression through Charles Stanley, and other pastors that I have listened to that the witch did bring up a demon instead of Samuel. I just have a couple of questions if it was the Lord Who brought up Samuel: 1. If it was Samuel, why did he accept worship by Saul in verse 14? Even the angels don't accept someone bowing down to them. 2. In verse 19 Samuel told Saul that he and his sons were going to be with him the next day. They weren't going to the same place. Samuel was a Godly man, Saul was not. Jesus said in Luke 16:26 said that there was a great chasm between the two places.....paradise and the place of torment. Just wondering. |
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Post by Benjamin on Mar 11, 2015 8:16:29 GMT
Alright, good questions...
1) I wouldn't suggest that Saul is worshipping Samuel in this verse. I think it's probably a combination of two things - first of all, reverence for Samuel as a prophet of the Lord - and second of all, a gut reaction to the fear and horror Saul felt when he recognised what was happening.
2) I don't think Samuel was being so specific as to suggest that Saul and his sons would be joining him in paradise here, but rather, a more simple truth: that they'd be dead. Regardless of the semantics on that issue, the truth is that ultimately, all of the dead prior to Christ DID go to the same place: Sheol. The two places mentioned in Luke ('Abraham's Bosom' and 'the Place of Torment') are in fact the one place (Sheol), divided into two sections, with a gulf in between.
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Post by Leeza on Mar 11, 2015 15:49:10 GMT
Those were good answers, Benjamin. Thanks. It's hard when you have been taught and believed something else for so many years. It would never have occurred to me that it was the Lord Who brought up Samuel. I always believed that the witch brought up a demon spirit that imitated Samuel. You gave me something to think about. I will have to chew on that for awhile.
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Post by Gr8tful on Mar 11, 2015 16:33:19 GMT
I agree w/Benjamin on this. It had to be a terrifying thing for Saul to realize Samuel really was sent! And knowing what that meant! That part that you mentioned Leeza had me ponder too for a minute, but realized it simply meant exactly that, that Saul would be dead too. I haven't fully understood this part of scripture until now. I see now that it wasn't God going against His Word at all! Thanks for all the help with all this you guys!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 16:47:39 GMT
She wasn't terrified of Samuel,but now she knew he was King Saul.Saul himself had promised death to mediums.At this time Satan still held the keys to death and hades.
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Post by shelayne on Mar 19, 2015 21:18:02 GMT
Was the medium actually able to call up Samuel? Charles Stanley, in one of his sermons said that Satan just conjured up an illusion of Satan. The thing is though that the Samuel figure knew that Saul and his sons, would die that day. Would Satan have known that? I would disagree with Stanley entirely. My reasoning is fairly simple. Look at the passage: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”...when this woman saw what she did, she was TERRIFIED. The text says that the woman saw Samuel (not Satan), and was afraid - and that Saul calmed her down. I'd suggest that the woman EXPECTED something demonic, and instead received a genuine apparition, sent by the Lord... and that is what threw her off. This is exactly how our pastor explained it to us, too, Benjamin. She was expecting the counterfeit, and she received the real thing. Since delving into that realm is demonic at its core, she wouldn't be afraid of it. It would be familiar. Something sent from God would not be. |
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Yes, it does seem like what Benjamin said, it was legit! Which seems to go against what God said to NOT do, to the point that no one even then was allowed to use mediums and such! YET, here is one being used. But a thought just occurred to me, when in Acts 16: 16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
