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Post by Leeza on Apr 5, 2015 16:23:30 GMT
Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.Okay, so the Lord is angry at Israel, and He moved David to number Israel and Judah. Then going down to verse 10: But David’s heart smote him after he had numbered the people. David said to the Lord, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. I beseech You, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly. I'm a little confused here. Didn't the Lord move David to number Israel and Judah? Why did David's heart smote him? Wasn't he obeying what the Lord moved him to do?  ? Then continuing to verses 11-13: When David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying,12 Go and say to David, Thus says the Lord, I hold over you three choices; select one of them, so I may bring it upon you.
13 So Gad came to David and told him and said, Shall seven years of famine come to your land? Or will you flee three months before your pursuing enemies? Or do you prefer three days of pestilence in your land? Consider and see what answer I shall return to Him Who sent me. So, the Lord moves David to number Israel and Judah, David obeys Him, then his heart was grieved for doing so, (which I don't understand why because he was doing what the Lord said), then on top of everything else, the Lord punishes David for doing what He told him to do in the first place!!!!! What am I missing here? |
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 5, 2015 17:50:03 GMT
I found this online:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) David’s heart smote him.—This time David’s own conscience was awakened, without the necessity of being roused, as in the case of Uriah, by the visit of a prophet. He confesses his sin, and prays for pardon. Still it must be remembered that ten months had passed (2 Samuel 24:8) before David saw his sin.
www.studylight.org/commentary/2-samuel/24-10.html
Most places I read it was re: a sin he had committed months before - it took him months to even acknowledge that it was sin.
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 5, 2015 18:07:45 GMT
Leeza, this is what I found on the JFB Commentary from the e Sword Bible Program:
2Sa 24:1-4
2Sa_24:1-9. David numbers the people.
again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah — “Again” carries us back to the former tokens of His wrath in the three years’ famine [2Sa_21:1]. God, though He cannot tempt any man (Jam_1:13), is frequently described in Scripture as doing what He merely permits to be done; and so, in this case, He permitted Satan to tempt David. Satan was the active mover, while God only withdrew His supporting grace, and the great tempter prevailed against the king. (See Exo_7:13; 1Sa_26:19; 2Sa_16:10; Psa_105:25; Isa_7:17, etc.). The order was given to Joab, who, though not generally restrained by religious scruples, did not fail to present, in strong terms (see on 1Ch_21:3), the sin and danger of this measure. He used every argument to dissuade the king from his purpose. The sacred history has not mentioned the objections which he and other distinguished officers urged against it in the council of David. But it expressly states that they were all overruled by the inflexible resolution of the king.
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Post by Leeza on Apr 5, 2015 18:57:45 GMT
Thank you, Gr8tful and Liz, for your answers.
I just have a couple of comments:
1. Gr8tful, the commentary said that it did take David a long time to acknowledge his sin with Uriah...through Nathan the prophet. But it doesn't say in scripture how long it took David to have his heart smote after numbering the men. It seems like this was two different circumstances, perhaps?
2. Liz, in the example you gave, the commentary said that it was Satan who put it into the heart of David to number the men. But the Bible specifically said that it was the Lord Who did it in this particular instance. If it was indeed Satan who put it into the heart of David to number the men in this instance, wouldn't the Bible say so like it did in 1 Chronicles 21:1?
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 5, 2015 22:55:03 GMT
Leeza, here's a lengthier explanation from gotquestions.org If you check out the scripture references, it helps explain in more detail. Question: "Who incited David to take the census in 2 Samuel 24, God or Satan? Why was God so angry at David for taking the census? Why did God punish the Israelite people when it was David who ordered the census?" Answer: The parallel account of the incident surrounding the census reveals it was Satan who incited David to take the census: “Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel” (1 Chronicles 21:1). However, the wording of 2 Samuel 24:1 says that it was God who “moved David” to take the census. This discrepancy can be explained by the understanding that sometimes God sovereignly permits Satan to act in order to achieve His purposes. God uses Satan in various ways, among them the refining, disciplining and purification of disobedient believers (Luke 22:31-32; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Such is the case with David. God allowed Satan to tempt him, and David sinned, revealing his pride and allowing God to deal with him for it. As to why God was angry at David, in those times, a man only had the right to count or number what belonged to him. Israel did not belong to David; Israel belonged to God. In Exodus 30:12 God told Moses, “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.” It was up to God to command a census, and if David counted he should only do it at God's command, receiving a ransom to "atone" for the counting. This is why God was angry again with Israel and is also why David was “conscience-stricken” after he counted Israel. David knew it was wrong and begged God to take away the guilt of his sin (2 Samuel 24:10). God gave David a choice of three punishments for his sin—three years of famine, three months of fleeing before his enemies, or three days of plague. David chose the third, and the Lord then punished Israel with a plague which killed 70,000 men from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. As for why God punished the whole nation for the sin of the king, that is exactly the question David asked in v. 17. Why, when he was the one who had sinned, did the people have to suffer? He even requested that God’s hand be against him and his family only, and that God would spare the people. But as with the account of Job, God chose not to give a reason for His actions. Perhaps it was because of Israel’s multiplied sins and rebellion against God throughout the centuries. Perhaps it was a lesson to the people (and to us as well) that the people suffer when their leaders go astray. The reality is that God didn’t justify His actions with a reason, nor does He have to. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not. As we see in 2 Samuel 24:16 God was grieved because of the things that were happening to His people and called off the punishment. Even through His rebuke God still shows His love and mercy. Recommended Resources: Bible Answers for Almost All Your Questions by Elmer L. Towns and Logos Bible Software. Read more: www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html#ixzz3WTi8RQb2 |
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Post by Leeza on Apr 5, 2015 23:49:07 GMT
This was a rather good explanation, Liz, thank you!
Gr8tful, that website you posted was good, too, with the different commentaries. Those expound on the meaning of the scriptures.
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 6, 2015 14:58:32 GMT
Hey Leeza I will have to look the reasoning re: 10 mons. I saw that on many commentaries, so will have to find one that explains it better.
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 6, 2015 14:59:28 GMT
BTW good questions Leeza!
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Post by Leeza on Apr 6, 2015 16:02:09 GMT
Thanks, Gr8tful! Looking forward to the commentary.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 17:21:43 GMT
The way I always understood it,that numbering the people was accustomed to signing up for the draft.David sent Joab through out Israel to sign up these young men for military service.Instead of trusting God to defend Israel,he was leaning towards numbers.Also,I think David might have let a little bit of pride in his accomplishments creep in.
This is a tough one!
Edit: I did not read all the above commentaries,so if this is a repeat of any above......my bad!
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Post by Leeza on Apr 6, 2015 19:00:17 GMT
Yes, good point, DPR. I agree with what you said.
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Post by shelayne on Apr 7, 2015 6:57:53 GMT
Interesting, Leeza. I was just reading my NASB translation, and it is worded a little differently: Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 The king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, “Go about now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and register the people, that I may know the number of the people.”
So it would seem the Lord did not directly tell David to number Israel and Judah, but it was David who told Joab to do so. David was not being obedient; he was taking the Lord's anger on, himself, acting as if he was commanded by God, when he was not. He was acting outside of God's Will.
That is how I am reading it. |
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Post by Leeza on Apr 7, 2015 16:31:07 GMT
Oh, that's interesting, Shelayne. Amazing how just one word "it" instead of "He" can change the entire meaning.
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Post by Gr8tful on Apr 7, 2015 18:24:18 GMT
Hey Leeza I looked for another commentary re: the 10 mons and of course didn't come across it this time! When I first posted that I choose it over quite a few that said the same thing. But now can't find them! I just realized I need to type in the same wording I used last time to find them! I think dpr and shelayne are correct tho.
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Post by shelayne on Apr 8, 2015 12:31:17 GMT
Oh, that's interesting, Shelayne. Amazing how just one word "it" instead of "He" can change the entire meaning. Yes, there are many verses where I like to check out more than one translation to see if I am missing something. I also like to have my Strong's Concordance at the ready, though it is probably online, I like the feel of that big ole book.  |
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Post by Leeza on Apr 8, 2015 15:03:16 GMT
I know what you mean, Shelayne. I read where the NIV version replaces words and leaves some out, so I don't trust that version at all. I learned how to read the Bible by the KJV, which I learned to love but it's a bit hard to understand with the Old English, so my very favorite edition is the NKJV. I also like the Amplified Bible, because it does explain meanings that are a little hard to understand.
I do have a concordance and a Matthew Henry commentary. I also have a Hebrew/Greek Bible that I have handy in case I want to look up the original meanings of certain words. That is so helpful! If you don't have one already, I would highly recommend getiing one.
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Post by shelayne on Apr 8, 2015 23:11:00 GMT
I have the Matthew Henry Commentary and John MacArthur's as well. I do like to look up the Greek and Hebrew in the Strong's. That is where I discovered the word Harpazo was only used , I think, 3 times in the Bible. Two of the times were in reference to "no one can snatch them from my hand." I thought that was really interesting. The NIV is OK (I have an NIV Study Bible), but it is not a word-for-word translation. The NASB is, so I added that to my collection, and it has been my go-to. From what I can tell, it is nearly identical to the ESV, which is another word-for-word translation. I have a KJV, but I confess it is not my favorite. I have a NKJV, NLT, and a RSV. The one that cracks us up though, I think it is called the "Good News Bible" that Hubs received when he was confirmed. He calls it the Dum-dum Bible.  I will NOT use that abomination called "The Message". My absolute favorite has to be the Bible that my grandparents had in their home when I was a little girl. It is one of those big family Bibles, where all the births, deaths, and marriages are recorded. It has beautiful pictures, and when I was a little girl. I would sit on the floor, pull it off the shelf of the coffee table, and page through that Bible over and over. When my grandma died, my mom told me I could have just about anything in the house I wanted. I asked for that Bible. It is now in my living room, and is oh so very special to me. |
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Post by Leeza on Apr 9, 2015 0:27:04 GMT
"Dum Dum Bible" Good one! Looks like your husband has a great sense of humor like you do. Yeah, you're well equipped like I am when it comes to different versions of the Bible and study aids if not more. It's great to really delve deep, isn't? It's hard to understand how Christians are just happy going to church and looking up a few verses in the sermon and don't bother reading the Word for themselves. Then they wonder why they are tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, lol!! I was in that state once, and I hated it. Always in a state of confusion on what to believe. That's when I got my study aids and started delving into the scriptures for myself with the illumination of the Holy Spirit giving me understanding. I still have questions from time to time, and I am very grateful to have a forum like this one with folks who are well grounded to help me answer my questions. You guys are the best!!  |
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Post by shelayne on Apr 9, 2015 12:10:49 GMT
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I will NOT use that abomination called "The Message". My absolute favorite has to be the Bible that my grandparents had in their home when I was a little girl. It is one of those big family Bibles, where all the births, deaths, and marriages are recorded. It has beautiful pictures, and when I was a little girl. I would sit on the floor, pull it off the shelf of the coffee table, and page through that Bible over and over. When my grandma died, my mom told me I could have just about anything in the house I wanted. I asked for that Bible. It is now in my living room, and is oh so very special to me.