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Post by Benjamin on Sept 8, 2014 11:57:58 GMT
I thought this might be worth sharing.
These videos (and I don't necessarily endorse anything else by this channel, just FYI - I haven't watched his other content, though the author, Andre Hendricks, died in 2012) were a big part of the 'wake up call' for me in terms of understanding the Rapture. Arguments regarding "the day or the hour" aside, I love the symbolism.
Anyway. To the videos! This is a 7-part series, inexplicably broken up into 8 parts (go figure) on YouTube. Each video is about 15 minutes in length. It's not a quick set of videos to watch, but I'd absolutely recommend it. It's one of the more comprehensive explanations you'll see of this viewpoint.
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Post by elizabeth on Sept 8, 2014 21:21:09 GMT
Thanks for posting this Benjamin, it was worth the listen. I look for the rapture everyday, but I watched this, and thought it was pretty comprehensive and interesting. A lot it I had heard before, but some of it was new to me.
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Post by Benjamin on Sept 8, 2014 22:51:37 GMT
I'm with you - I'm not completely sold that the Rapture will fulfil any of the fall feasts... but I do like the typology, and studies like this one (which is pretty comprehensive) are compelling, if nothing else. I think no matter how we look at it, Israel is the key; and there are so many signs occurring right now, even just TODAY, that it's impossible for me to think anything other than that we are in the very last hours of the Last Days.
Definitely cause to look up!
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Post by Leeza on Sept 9, 2014 2:05:49 GMT
I've watched the first five videos, and I find it really interesting! Thanks, Benjamin. I have always leaned towards the FOT for being the day of the rapture, for several reasons, but I will only mention a couple of them right now.
First, I lean towards a FOT rapture because I do believe in God's appointed times as mentioned in Leviticus 23, and since the Lord fulfilled the first 4 Spring Feasts in His first coming, I can see Him fulfilling the next 3 Fall feasts in His second coming, starting with the Feast of Trumpets being the rapture of the church. I have trouble believing in the rapture being on a random day because the Lord's timing is very exacting, starting with the timing of the Lord's first coming, and I can see the rapture happening on God's MOED appointed time.
Secondly, another reason why I have leaned towards the FOT is because of the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding in which I have seen videos presented by Perry Stone and Mark Biltz who have explained all of these in detail.
Anyway, yes, I am leaning towards the FOT, but I am torn between that and the number fulfillment of the times of the gentiles, also. But who's to say that number can't be on a FOT?
Question: In the second (or third, I'm not sure which) video, he talks about the parables of the foolish virgins and the unworthy servant. I get the impression that what he was saying was that if the church is not ready or watching for the rapture, they are going to be left behind. Did I get that right? But aren't ALL Christians going in the rapture? I get that impression from 1 John 2:28. Even if a Christian is backslidden at the time of the rapture, they will still go up but will be ashamed because they are not abiding in the vine. (Not to mention losing rewards at the Bema Seat Judgment.) Not only that, but we are the Bride of Christ, not the 10 virgins! The 10 virgins are a part of the wedding party, not to be confused with the bride.
Okay, well, these are my thoughts. Back to watching the last 3 videos. Thanks again, Benjamin. Really good videos!
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Post by Benjamin on Sept 9, 2014 2:36:16 GMT
Question: In the second (or third, I'm not sure which) video, he talks about the parables of the foolish virgins and the unworthy servant. I get the impression that what he was saying was that if the church is not ready or watching for the rapture, they are going to be left behind. Did I get that right? But aren't ALL Christians going in the rapture? I get that impression from 1 John 2:28. Even if a Christian is backslidden at the time of the rapture, they will still go up but will be ashamed because they are not abiding in the vine. (Not to mention losing rewards at the Bema Seat Judgment.) Not only that, but we are the Bride of Christ, not the 10 virgins! The 10 virgins are a part of the wedding party, not to be confused with the bride. Okay, well, these are my thoughts. Back to watching the last 3 videos. Thanks again, Benjamin. Really good videos! I know the section you're talking about - but I'd suggest that he's not talking about the church at large, but the lukewarm church of Laodicea - that is, those who are not "in Christ" at all. The picture given is the same in multiple places throughout Scripture - all 10 women are virgins, so what distinguishes them? Some have oil, some don't. This oil isn't 'watching', and the problem with these virgins isn't so much the fact that they're asleep, but that their sleep left them unprepared, and without oil. What is the 'oil'? It's a synonym for the Holy Spirit. You can see this in Zechariah and Revelation, where the lampstands are fed by that oil, and kept burning according to its provision. So... in the parable of the virgins, 5 have the Holy Spirit, 5 don't. Some of those women simply aren't part of the Body of Christ, despite having shared in many of the blessings of the Bride - and as a result of being caught without the Holy Spirit, will not be present in the Rapture. So... it's not a question of preparation, but of salvation.
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Post by Leeza on Sept 9, 2014 2:57:15 GMT
Really good explanation. Thank you for clarifying this for me. I enjoyed these videos very much. Thanks again for posting them.
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Post by peaceinthestorm on Sept 10, 2014 2:58:01 GMT
These videos sure made a good case for feast of the trumpets. Whether the rapture is or isn't on this feast, it sure is looking like it will be soon. I am glad you posted these. I did learn some more things about the Jewish wedding ceremony.
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Post by shiloh on Sept 15, 2014 16:26:32 GMT
I know many lean toward FOT for the Rapture. Perry Stone is a big advocate of the rapture happening during that feast. His videos are intriguing but I still cannot make the connection between the church and Israel (the Jews). I have moved away from that feast along with others. I'm not saying that it won't happen on a feast day but the feast are FOR Israel to be fulfilled by the Lord Himself. On the other hand, what better way to provoke Israel to jealousy? As far as the church goes, we are seperate. Why would it necessarily happen on a Jewish observed feast day? Pentecost is interesting but it can happen on a normal day, being that it depends on a certain number of the church has met the predetermined number that only God knows...("until the fulness of the gentiles has come in".)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 17:34:55 GMT
I will tread lightly here, I don't associate the fullness of the gentiles with the Body of Christ.The reference here(my opinion) is to the nation of Israel that will be held back until the gentile nations have run their course.The last person to be saved will happen during the tribulation.(they too might not be part of the Bride or the age of Grace).After this, the only survivors of the tribulation will be the innocent.The fullness of the gentiles and the church are two distinct entities.
This is just my thoughts, so correct me if I am wrong.....
The fullness of Israel will happen at the end of the Tribulation,when the Lord sits upon the Throne.
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Post by morningstar on Sept 15, 2014 19:48:21 GMT
I will tread lightly here, I don't associate the fullness of the gentiles with the Body of Christ.The reference here(my opinion) is to the nation of Israel that will be held back until the gentile nations have run their course.The last person to be saved will happen during the tribulation.(they too might not be part of the Bride or the age of Grace).After this, the only survivors of the tribulation will be the innocent.The fullness of the gentiles and the church are two distinct entities. This is just my thoughts, so correct me if I am wrong..... The fullness of Israel will happen at the end of the Tribulation,when the Lord sits upon the Throne. Dr2014...Love your avatar!!...Very unique.. There are two verses in regard to the Gentile's. This one is in regards to Israel, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until "Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"...Key word here is Jerusalem (The Holy city of God)..Israel took possession of Jerusalem in the war of 1968, but the Temple Mount is still under Arab rule & authority and will be so until the end of the Tribulation according to Zechariah 14. Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
This second one is in regards to the Church . For Paul is addressing the Church. Israel is partially blinded until the Church is removed in the Rapture, after that is Israel's redemption (7 yr tribulation). As Shiloh pointed out, there is a number that only God knows that will complete the dispensation of Grace (Church Age) in which we will be removed and preserved from the Wrath of God on an unbelieving world. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I hope this helps, or maybe I mis-understood your comment..
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Post by shiloh on Sept 15, 2014 22:10:36 GMT
Thanks, Morningstar. You just saved me a lot of typing. I used to get those two ("the fulness of the Gentiles come in" and "until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled") confused too until I really saw who was being addressed. By the way, I love your avatar too!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 17:51:52 GMT
I am still confused about the fullness of the gentiles? The combined population of China,India and southeast Asia is a little over 40% (3 Billion)of the worlds population. Do we have to wait on Christianity to spread through out these country's? Maybe we do? As Chuck Missler has stated, Christianity has always moved westward. The Apostle Paul was forbidden to take the Gospel into Asia? Since then Christianity has moved westward from the Middle East to Europe,crossing the Atlantic to America then Japan and now possibly to the far east.Until it comes full circle back to it's origination.(Jerusalem)
Give credit for the avatar to Benjamin, I am not that talented.... Thnx Ben!
I have no idea!!!!
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Post by morningstar on Sept 16, 2014 20:27:05 GMT
I am still confused about the fullness of the gentiles? The combined population of China,India and southeast Asia is a little over 40% (3 Billion)of the worlds population. Do we have to wait on Christianity to spread through out these country's? Maybe we do? As Chuck Missler has stated, Christianity has always moved westward. The Apostle Paul was forbidden to take the Gospel into Asia? Since then Christianity has moved westward from the Middle East to Europe,crossing the Atlantic to America then Japan and now possibly to the far east.Until it comes full circle back to it's origination.(Jerusalem) Give credit for the avatar to Benjamin, I am not that talented.... Thnx Ben!I have no idea!!!! Sorry dpr2014, I am still confused I think as to what your question is. All I know is that only God knows the number of the fullness of the Gentiles and it could be from anywhere around the world. I found this article in Jack Kelley's site. This might help explain it. The Full Number Of Gentiles Q & A By Jack Kelley Q. I want to thank you for your articles and commentaries. They have been very encouraging and uplifting, as are those of many other expositors. I enjoy yours very much as they most often deal with prophecy and the end times. It is something I have had much interest in since I became a Christian in 1972. Please keep up the good work. I would like to say that occasionally I find a doctrine that seems to not be in keeping with Scripture. And one of those being the concept that God is waiting to bring in that last slated believer to complete the right number before He takes the church off this earth. God says He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Ptr 3:9). I do not find any scripture that bears witness to that doctrine of the last believer. Instead I find that God is waiting for the ‘fulness of transgressions’ to come in as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah, and with the Amorites as He said He would to Abram. The word Gentile in scripture most always applies to unbelievers, infidels, enemies of God. It was that way exclusively in the Old Testament as regards God’s commandments for Israel to destroy them when taking the land. And in the New Testament the majority of the time it applies thus as well. Strong’s Concordance defines Gentile as a non-Jew: (Greek Lexicon 1672) an inhabitant of Hellas; a Greek-speaking person. In the Greek (1481), and in the Hebrew (1471) it is defined as heathen, nation, people. There is no mention of it meaning strictly a believer in the Church. A. You’re welcome to your opinion, but I don’t buy it. In Acts 15:13-14 James said in effect that Israel was being set aside while the Lord took a people for Himself from among the Gentiles. That’s the Church. Paul was at that meeting and that’s what He was referring to in Romans 11:25 when he said, “until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” We know this because Paul then said that as soon as that happens God will turn his attention back to Israel, which is the same thing James said in Acts 15:15-18. Paul and James were in agreement. The Full Number Of Gentiles Q. I have been listening to your MP-3 study on Mark and have been greatly blessed by it. But I have been thinking about some things you said in Part 7 about the Rapture not being a “timing thing” but rather a “numbers thing”. You said that Paul revealed the mystery that the rapture would not happen until the “full number of Gentiles has come in”, and you give the nautical reference about how a ship could not sail without the “full number” of crew. I understand this and agree with you but have this question. A ship could not sail without the full number of crew because there wouldn’t be enough men to do the work needed on the ship. In your opinion is that what God is saying regarding the rapture as well? Could the “full number” of Gentiles be based on some task required in heaven or the new earth or something like that? I say this because it seems hard to fathom that the “full number” would refer to a point when the gospel was preached to every person on earth. The earth’s population is continually turning over (if you will) so how would/could that point be reached? But likewise it is hard for me to fathom that a certain number would be reached and then “the ship would sail” so to speak and some would be left behind. True, they could still be saved during the tribulation but just without the benefit of the holy spirit or grace that the Church enjoys. I am interested in your thoughts regarding this. A. People were saved before the Church was born and there will be people saved after we’ve gone. The Church is simply one classification of believers. And as you’ve pointed out, no matter when the Lord takes us there will be those who are left behind. We won’t be taken because there’s a job awaiting us or because we’re more worthy. We’ll be taken because there’s a predetermined number of people in the Church and when that number is reached, the church’s days on earth are over. The nautical analogy Paul used was only to establish the concept of a predetermined number. Taking it beyond that conflicts with the idea that at the Rapture, the Church’s work is finished. LinkFair Use for Discussion Purposes.
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Post by Leeza on Sept 19, 2014 8:08:24 GMT
I know many lean toward FOT for the Rapture. Perry Stone is a big advocate of the rapture happening during that feast. His videos are intriguing but I still cannot make the connection between the church and Israel (the Jews). I have moved away from that feast along with others. I'm not saying that it won't happen on a feast day but the feast are FOR Israel to be fulfilled by the Lord Himself. On the other hand, what better way to provoke Israel to jealousy? As far as the church goes, we are seperate. Why would it necessarily happen on a Jewish observed feast day? Pentecost is interesting but it can happen on a normal day, being that it depends on a certain number of the church has met the predetermined number that only God knows...("until the fulness of the gentiles has come in".) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)Shiloh, just a couple of thoughts about this: First of all, the Bible says that the 7 feasts in the Bible are God's feasts, not just Jewish feasts. In Leviticus 23:4, the Bible says that they are the Lord's appointed feasts. For example, I don't necessarily see Pentecost as just a feast for the Jews only. I also see Pentecost for the gentiles, also, because the apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. And as you know, that was the beginning of the church and the age of grace for those who accept Jesus into their hearts as Lord and Savior, Jews and Gentiles alike. Secondly, the Lord fulfilled the first 4 Spring feasts at His first coming, and I believe that the Lord is consistent in that the next 3 feasts will be linked at His second coming, starting with the Feast of Trumpets. I can see the rapture as the first Fall Feast to be fulfilled, then Yom Kippur (or the Day of Atonement) when Israel looks at the Lord whom they have pierced, and and mourns for Him like their only son as described in Zechariah 12:10. Then, I see the third Fall Feast being fulfilled in the Feast of Tabernacles, representing the millennial reign. The Lord is very precise in His timing. It's hard for me to see the rapture happening on "any old day", because everything the Lord does is planned out to the exact timing, including the birth and death of His son Jesus. Who's to say that the "fullness of the Gentiles" can't be on the Feast of Trumpets? I'm not saying that it is going to be on the FOT, I just see a logical explanation of why it COULD be on that day. Plus, like you said, what better way to provoke Israel to jealousy like it says in Romans 11:11? Just saying....
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Post by shiloh on Sept 19, 2014 14:35:18 GMT
I understand what you are saying which is why I said that I'm not saying it won't happen on one of the feasts. But who is to say that the predetermined number set for the church (that only the Lord knows) can't happen on an ordinary day? I see Pentecost as being more for the church, simply because of what you stated. The apostles received the Holy Spirit plus it was the beginning of the church. As for the Jews who come to Christ as their Lord and Saviour, they are part of the church too. As Paul explained, when one accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour, they are no longer Jew nor Gentile but are seperate, being part of the church. For these reasons, I believe it is impossible to even speculate or even attempt to guess the day/date of the Rapture, since we don't know what the predetermined number of the church is. I've seen too much of that in the past only to see people get all depressed because it didn't happen on that feast day or date. As the church, we should be looking up every moment being that we are already seeing the signs for the Tribulation and the Second Coming. I see people doing that all the time and they only look toward feast days.
Just sayin'.
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Post by Leeza on Sept 19, 2014 16:41:14 GMT
Oh, okay, I see where you're coming from. Since I gave you my best explanation, I don't have anything else to add. I always try to see the other person's point of view, even though I may not necessarily agree with them, because I do consider the fact that they may be right so I try to keep an open mind. Unless, of course, what they are saying is totally off the wall and unscriptural. But that's not the case here.
It's true that people who only look to feasts get very depressed and disappointed. I used to be one of them. Thank God He delivered me from that, because that can be painful. But whether or not the rapture comes on an ordinary day or on a feast day, I know that I will always be a watcher. I think the Lord puts the passion in our hearts to be watchers.
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Post by morningstar on Sept 19, 2014 17:14:42 GMT
Shiloh I agree 100% on your last comment, and I think the Thread you posted "Not Rapture" pretty much explains it.
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