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Post by shiloh on Nov 7, 2013 5:31:25 GMT
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Post by Benjamin on Nov 7, 2013 9:47:12 GMT
Wow... I didn't expect that. I actually have a lot of issues with this article (and I usually like Pete Garcia's writing). ...as with all American articles (no offense to either of you!), I think Garcia woefully overestimates the number of people Raptured - and potentially overestimates the impact of the Rapture, too. That's not to suggest that the Rapture isn't an important event - but I can't help but feel that a lot LESS people will disappear than most would like to believe. I think a lot of "Christians" will find themselves horrified at being left behind - having a knowledge of what should have taken place, but not actually ever having been saved in the first place. In fact, we have an entire generation who have grown up in a culture where salvation has taken a back seat to entertainment, so that shouldn't surprise any of us in the least. On the flipside though, I think he underestimates the time AFTER the Rapture. Now, this is one area where I probably disagree with quite a few people. I do not believe that there will be a significant time frame between the Rapture and the Tribulation. My reasoning, put simply, is this: what stands in the way of the Tribulation occurring? We do. Jesus said that it was the Restrainer that held back Antichrist. That restrainer lives in us, just as He promised. "Unless I go, He cannot come to you". Likewise when we go, so too will the Restrainer. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Tribulation occurrs IMMEDIATELY after the Rapture; I just don't believe that the gap will be a significant time frame (Garcia thinks 7+ years! Wow!) Garcia's argument is on the left here - my response on the right. Psalm 83 Event (weeks to months)-removes immediate threat to Israel
| This event could happen TOMORROW... why has Garcia placed it between the Rapture and the Tribulation? I believe this could occur anywhere between tomorrow and... early Tribulation. Anywhere in that time frame would fit.
| Israel rises to prominence and lives in peace.
| I'm not sold that Israel "rises to prominence" in the Tribulation - it's just that GOD'S focus is on Israel (and thus so is the Bible's). As for living in peace - I'm pretty sure a post-Psalm 83 world in which the Antichrist has forged a peace treaty would take care of that (which is one of the reasons why I believe Psalm 83 to be early tribulation).
| Ezekiel 38-39 event (weeks to months)-Israel must feel secure and be prosperous.
| I would place this during the Tribulation, and most definitely not before.
| Jewish Temple Rebuilt (around a year-if allowed unimpeded)-currently doesn’t have the political will to do this just yet.
| Everything is ready and in place. Israel currently lacks the political will because they believe the destruction or removal of the Dome of the Rock would be required. This could go one of two ways - either a) the Dome of the Rock is destroyed, or 2) Israel discovers the site of the original temple, either to the South or to the North. With either of these things occurring, a temple could be built VERY quickly (inside a year). Regardless, the temple doesn't need to be standing until the Tribulation's mid-point.. where it receives its first mention (unless I'm mistaken) as Antichrist sets up the Abomination that causes Desolation.
| The world would need to align into ten regional areas.
| Already done by the UN. The adoption of these regional areas as political borders wouldn't take much effort in the event of a global financial collapse (see next point).
| One world currency becomes the main currency of the world-at least a year.
| A year? I doubt that very much. If the US collapses economically, measures are already in place to make this happen. China and Russia have seen to that.
| One world religion embraced (at least 2 years)-this seems to be the result of the failed Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 wars, finally taking the steam out of militant Islam. This opens the door for a hybrid “Christian/Islam/Hindu” mix. This will be accompanied by the ‘lying signs and wonders’.
| I disagree violently. I think the One world religion is set up to worship the beast - who will be simultaneously recognised by "Christians" (not genuine Christians, of course, but by those still in the churches) and by Muslims as their Messiah.
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So... as you can see, I don't see a need for a long time-frame between the Rapture and the Tribulation. What concerns me more than that, though, is the naturalistic approach Garcia takes to the post-rapture period. This reads to me like a world in which the Restrainer is still active. Looting? Unrest in major cities? We have those things NOW when things go bad. To assume that a similar scenario will unfold without the restraint of the Holy Spirit is to greatly underestimate the power of his restraint! I think that the scenario will be wildly different to what Garcia has proposed... not in terms of looting and civil unrest, but in terms of the fact that the resistance to every kind of immorality will be gone. Historians actually talk about the fact that Rome collapsed not because of its inability to rule its own Empire, but because of moral decay - people gave themselves over to immorality at the expense of governance. I'd expect something similar to occur, only on a much more dramatic scale. |
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Post by shiloh on Nov 7, 2013 17:06:53 GMT
LOL, well, you don't have to "violently disagree", Benjamin...hahahahahahaha...I go back and forth as far as my thinking goes in the time period as far as Ezekiel 38-39 in the past years. I DO believe the church is gone before then, but I'm not so sure about Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17. Only God knows that. That has always been my question though, "Is Ezekiel 38-39 per-trib or is it part of the Trib?" I think it is WWIII, which is where God turns His full attention back to Israel and deals with their remaining time of 7 years. Either way, pre-trib or during the trib, I believe the church will have been removed before Ezekiel 38-39 begins begins. There is no longer a reason for the church to remain. The age of grace will have ended. In regards to when the church is removed, it depends on what your thinking is. I personally DO see a gap because if one thinks about Ezekiel 38-39 being pre-trib. How are they going to explain the disappearance of millions of people from around the world? They are going to have to explain all of this, rearranging from everything within government on down and all will have be "fixed". That will take the AC and he false prophet (who promotes the AC) to accomplish this. Enter the strong delusion upon all who have rejected Christ. How can this be done in a short period of time. I'm not so sure about the 7 years prior either, but we know there will be massive panic worldwide. It's going to take time to straighten things out worldwide too. I see what you are saying and yes, ultimately, the one world religion IS set up to worship the beast. I think in a certain sense, you are both saying the same thing. He just didn't go that far in his article. We all know that it comes down to worshiping the beast. Don't forget though, many will be saved yet put to death ad some will escape death. Those, I believe, are they that repopulate the New Millenium. The Holy Spirit will be present but not "indwelling". The Lord said there would always be a witness. Here's an article by Jack Kelley and I have some others if this is too short. The Nature Of Post-Church Salvation - by Jack Kelley
gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/the-nature-of-post-church-salvation/ Fair Use for Education and Discussion Purposes |
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Post by Benjamin on Nov 7, 2013 20:37:34 GMT
I don't have an argument with the post-church salvation issue - I wholeheartedly believe that God will save His own.
I agree, too, that the ministry of the Holy Spirit isn't over - but during that window after the Rapture, who, on earth, will be saved? Nobody! Nobody, that is, except perhaps for the Two Witnesses, and later, the 144,000... and any who come out of those ministries.
I also don't have a problem with a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation - but I think it will be a short gap, and certainly not as long as 7 years. 7 months? Maybe. 7 years? No, I don't think so.
Gary Stearman believes in a pre-tribulation Ezekiel 38 too:
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Post by morningstar on Nov 7, 2013 22:47:00 GMT
I also believe there will be a short gap between the Rapture & Tribulation, it won't take years because basically everything seems to be set up on the world stage today for the AntiChrist to just step in and bring it all together. I like Gary Stearman, and there are other Bible teachers that believe the Ezekiel 38 war will probably take place before the Rapture. I just don't hold that view at all. To me this view leaves to many holes to fill, I won't go point by point on this, but after studying this for years, I have pretty much come to the conclusion and also agree with Hal Lindsey on the timing of Ezekiel 38, and this I do know, that Chuck Missler and Hal Lindsey have separate viewpoints on this also, both have good arguments but the one that makes more sense to me is Hal Lindsey's.
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Post by Benjamin on Nov 8, 2013 1:44:20 GMT
on the plus side, if it's anywhere in the Tribulation, our opinions on it won't matter regardless.
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Post by shiloh on Nov 8, 2013 5:59:03 GMT
Yes, I thought of that. We'll all be out of his world and probably going, "Why did we even debate?" How did you do that with putting your views opposite his as far as formatting it?
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Post by Benjamin on Nov 8, 2013 6:53:03 GMT
Ah, I should have warned you.
I'm made of awesomeness, so I think wonderful things and they just happen.
Seriously though... if you click "reply", rather than using the "post quick reply" box, you'll get a bunch of extra options for text. One of them is "tables". Mine's a table without visible borders. You can select the number of rows and columns etc., and you just need to replace the table's pre-inserted text with whatever you want.
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