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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 18:19:36 GMT
If we are close, the above witnesses should be alive and among us! My question is, are they centralized in Israel, or perhaps has the Lord strategically placed them all around the globe?
Rev.7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Check out Revelation 7, what do you think?
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2014 18:50:07 GMT
That's a good question, dpr. I've wondered if they even know who they are yet. Although, I don't think they do because they would be going in the Rapture. The great multitude, I believe are the Tribulation saints who've all been martyred. This will probaly include the 144,000. The reason I say this is because a 'great multitude' is a lot more than 144,000 and Rev.7:9-17 tells who they are. Specifically, Rev.7:9 says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the lamb." So, in short, I believe that the 144,000 are part of the great multitude of tribulation martyrs. I'm still wondering the same thing as you concerning the whereabouts of the 144,000.
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Post by shelayne on Feb 12, 2014 20:18:33 GMT
Don't the 144,000 survive the Tribulation? They are the ones sealed by God, representative of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. I always thought that they would go into the Millennium.
Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
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Post by elizabeth on Feb 12, 2014 20:28:22 GMT
I know this is going to sound strange, but I don't think the 144,000 are among us now. I think there is some Godly miracle that will be done, that will bring about these men. We may not be able to imagine what this is, but also keep in mind angels will be flying in the atmosphere during part of the tribulation also.
These men are really as miraculous as the two witnesses, I believe.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2014 21:25:24 GMT
Elizabeth, I agree with that and Shelayne, I'm going to have to do some more investigating. I know the Bible says that "those who are in Judea" are told to flee to the mountains.... (Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21) for starters. Maybe that is the 144,000. But I don't know. I think it's more than just the remnant and possibly includes gentiles.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 12, 2014 22:07:07 GMT
I think they MAY be among us now, but if they are, they haven't received an anointing for their ministry. I know that word gets thrown around a lot these days ("anointing"), but I mean it like this:
Have you seen 'The Matrix'? There's a point where Neo, ("The One"), visits 'The Oracle', to find out if he is in fact the one they've been waiting for. She looks him up and down, and says "What do you think?".
Neo replies, "that I'm not the one."
She responds "sorry, kid. You've got the gift, that much is true, but it's like you're waiting for something. Maybe another life."
It's not the world's greatest analogy - but in the movie, Neo has to DIE in order to become who he was always meant to be. After his miraculous resurrection, he finds that he can SEE the matrix, and manipulate it. He can even fly.
...likewise, until the 144,000 receive their anointing (they are "sealed" in Revelation 7, which hasn't occurred yet), I don't think they'll be aware of who they are - nor will they have the power that must accompany them into the Tribulation. As far as who they are, and where they are...? The angel in Revelation 7 calls out to the four angels charged with the judgement of the earth and tells them to wait - to not harm the earth or sea until the 144,000 are sealed. This suggests that the 144,000 may not all be *in* Israel, though they are certainly *of* Israel (being members of the 12 tribes).
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2014 22:29:47 GMT
Yes, I agree with that and I've seen the Matrix several tmes. I think it's a good analogy. Maybe they ARE all over the world at this point. I sort of lean that they are dispersed because they witness to the whole world.
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Post by elizabeth on Feb 12, 2014 23:15:36 GMT
I haven't seen The Matrix.
If these are people living in the world today, perhaps some of them won't even realize they are Jewish, until they are called and sealed - the ones from the lost tribes.
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Post by LS on Feb 13, 2014 1:23:58 GMT
Here's a thought-provoking article on the 144,000, written by a group I've never heard of before ... so use your discernment [mod edit: link shown below - from a Seventh Day Adventist source. The content of this link does not agree with Scripture on numerous points, but is left here as an interesting point of discussion. Please use your own discernment when reading.]"Who will sing the song: the 144,000 of Revelation 14
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Post by shelayne on Feb 13, 2014 14:05:43 GMT
That was an interesting article, LS. I will have to chew on that one a bit. I am not sure about this anointed group of 144,000 being "Spiritual Israel"; that term always makes me bristle because it is usually connected with Replacement Theology. That being said, the order of the Tribes and what their names mean was very intriguing. It doesn't seem that this gentleman is a pre-Tribber from this article, though I could be mistaken. There also seems to be a suggestion that only those that "keep the commandments" will be saved. So I think I need to read parts of this again after I have had more coffee. Thanks for sharing that.
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Post by LS on Feb 13, 2014 18:43:05 GMT
Yes, Shelayne, a lot, to chew on ... which is what sent up the red flags for me. As it turns out, the author is a Seventh Day Adventist. For context relating to that article, I found the following written by a former SDA: Well, that was Mr. Searcy's take at least. What I found interesting in the article was the author's thoughts on the "lost tribes". I'd heard of the lost tribes for years and never really gave any thought about how they fit in with the 144,000. That is, until last week when a friend asked if I'd heard Perry Stone's teaching on the American Cherokee Indian tribe being, in large part, related to (one of?) the lost tribes of Israel. I thought that sounded a bit far-fetched until I ran across this article from last year: Cherokee DNA Here's the key quote from this article: So are the 12,000 from the 12 tribes literal or spiritual? Could it be that the 12,000 each from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin are literal and sent to evangelize the Jews, while the other 120,000 are spiritual and spread out throughout the rest of the world for evangelization? Thoughts anyone?
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Post by morningstar on Feb 13, 2014 18:53:52 GMT
Shelayne....pass the sugar please. I have to disagree with him. Here we go again trying to find hidden messages in what the Lord has spoken in Scripture. God says what He means, and means what He says. The Church was grafted in, the tree itself was not uprooted. The dispensation of Grace (the Church age) will be completed at the time of the Rapture. God's focus is back on Israel during the tribulation, the 144,000 are Jewish believers who will complete what the Lord wanted them to do in the Old Testament and had failed back then. The tribulation period is the time of Israel's Redemption and God's Wrath on an unbelieving world...period. Interesting reading, but I think he is way off the wall. My opinion only..
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Post by shelayne on Feb 13, 2014 20:48:19 GMT
I was curious if this guy was a SDA because of his articles about the RCC being the beast, so you answered my question about that, LS. Thank you. I know through past dealings with SDAs that they--or at least some sects-- believe that our worshiping on Sundays is the Mark of the Beast. Apparently all us "Sunday people" have already taken the Mark. Talk about twisting Scripture to make it fit a preconceived notion... yowza! One thing that I kept saying as I read his article in answer to his question about how it could even be possible to locate all the bloodlines to the literal Jewish Tribes, is that nothing is impossible for God. The whole Tribulation is going to be filled with the supernatural. Does this guy really think that God doesn't know where to find these 144,000? This is what Preterists do as well. They spiritualize the parts of the Bible that make them uncomfortable. Too much miracle stuff. Too much of this supernatural business. We are much too intellectual to believe in stuff we cannot explain. We must spiritualize everything we cannot wrap our little finite minds around because it surely can't be literal. Umm... surely it CAN.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 13, 2014 21:25:21 GMT
Yeah, I'd be really careful with that article. Parts are slightly off, other things are just flat out wrong.
The 144,000 should be taken as being literal unless Scripture indicates (either textually or contextually) that it should be interpreted otherwise. Nothing in Scripture indicates that these verses are anything other than literal.
The mistake here is also made of assuming that the 10 tribes did not return from the exile. Scripture NEVER teaches this, but it's become popular among replacement theologians, in order to argue that the "Synagogue of Satan" are "false Jews", and that current-day Israel is actually not a fulfilment of prophecy. They believe this because they must; the reinstatement of Israel in 1948 completely blows away the idea that the church is "spiritual Israel". We are not; we are grafted in to that same vine, and the coming Tribulation will make it abundantly clear that LITERAL Israel is the one under God's judgement. We cannot have it both ways - there cannot be a Tribulation AND have the church as "spiritual Israel", because if both of those things are true, then who endures God's judgement? The CHURCH does, because the focus of the Tribulation is "the time of Jacob's trouble".
Back to the exile, though - people often claim that the 10 tribes never returned, and that many became "lost". This isn't true. The lists of the tribes in Scripture often vary because there WEREN'T 12 tribes to begin with - there were 13. There is always one left out, and the reason is often significant... but it doesn't mean that any of the tribes were lost. What people often miss is the fact that all of Israel were referred to as "Jews" quite early, relatively speaking - while those who adhere to this particular view suggest that the term applied only to the Southern Kingdom. This is false. There are numerous occasions in Scripture where the term refers both to the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the return from the exile being one of them.
In short? The article is incorrect, the 144,000 are literal, and Scripture means exactly what it says. As far as locating bloodlines...? Jesus Christ MADE this people, you really think He doesn't know where they're from? They're marked by HIM, not by a genealogist shuffling around trying to find the right piece of paper!
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Post by LS on Feb 13, 2014 22:22:08 GMT
I guess I missed the part in the article where he said the Church was "spiritual Israel"; had I noticed that I would've stopped reading. I do realize he was suggesting that regarding the 144,000 though. I guess this is one more strike against Perry Stone as well. I'd sent the DNA article to my friend (who's part Cherokee) and she said Stone's teaching was almost verbatim with the article. Now you can all calm down whilst I go chastise myself for asking a heretical question
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Post by morningstar on Feb 13, 2014 22:36:29 GMT
Well, God evidently did put a marker on His Jewish people. I found this very interesting when I first heard about it a few years back.
The Cohanim - DNA Connection
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Post by LS on Feb 13, 2014 23:49:50 GMT
A classic Zola Leavitt quote from Lamb & Lion Ministries ... I really miss Zola's teaching
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Post by shelayne on Feb 14, 2014 0:10:31 GMT
A classic Zola Leavitt quote from Lamb & Lion Ministries ... I really miss Zola's teaching Oh I love it! I miss Zola, too. I used to watch his show late at night. How he must be rejoicing in the presence of His Savior! \0/
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Post by intojoy on Mar 9, 2014 7:44:25 GMT
Supporting Jewish evangelism is going to be a part of the answer here. Because much of what the Jews hear of the gospel is warped and wrong, it's important to support Jewish missionaries to get the gospel to Jews. Because even if they reject the message today, they may be among the 144k who accept Messiah during the Trib.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by shiloh on Mar 9, 2014 23:29:01 GMT
I agree with that intojoy. There is one in particular that is very blessed and has been very effective in getting the message of Christ as Saviour and Lord to the Jews. The organization is called 'Jews for Jesus'. Have you ever heard of them? I'm sure you have but even they were saying how it is hard to get the message through to many of them. Yet, they have led many to salvation though, also. Praise God.
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Post by LS on Mar 11, 2014 1:56:55 GMT
Hi Intojoy, you said:
Would you mind elaborating on that statement? I think I may be misinterpreting what you mean. Thanks!
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Post by shiloh on Mar 11, 2014 2:54:41 GMT
Jim, that really made me laugh. I know I'm going out on a limb here as far as what intojoy said ad I am certaily not trying to speak for anyones statement. The way I took it was that even though they are still in rejection of our Savoiur Jesus, they may come to Him during the Tribulation and ask Him into their hearts. They probably don't even know who they are at this point. That's the impression I got and I agree with it because if they are already saved, they would be going with us in the Rapture. intojoy, if I'm wrong on what you meant, please correct me.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 11, 2014 2:55:09 GMT
Jim, that really made me laugh. I know I'm going out on a limb here as far as what intojoy said ad I am certaily not trying to speak for anyones statement. The way I took it was that even though they are still in rejection of our Savoiur Jesus, they may come to Him during the Tribulation and ask Him into their hearts. They probably don't even know who they are at this point. That's the impression I got and I agree with it because if they are already saved, they would be going with us in the Rapture. intojoy, if I'm wrong on what you meant, please correct me.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 11, 2014 3:01:51 GMT
I don't know what happened there...with that double post....
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Post by intojoy on Mar 11, 2014 5:34:06 GMT
Hi Intojoy, you said: Would you mind elaborating on that statement? I think I may be misinterpreting what you mean. Thanks! Many Jewish people are going to get saved during the tribulation and most of them will have been witnessed to by Christians before the rapture. We can still bear fruit in these Jews that come to faith during that time when we are in heaven by supporting Jewish missionaries today. Some of the Jews that are given the gospel today might realize later after the rapture that Yeshua is their Messiah. I would think that when the rapture occurs and the church is removed that it will be those Jews who heard the gospel but hesitated to accept it that God is going to use in that day. I believe that the Two Witnesses will be two Jewish believers in the tribulation that God will elevate to the position of prophets. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by LS on Mar 11, 2014 15:31:27 GMT
I agree with you, intojoy (didn't know if you were suggesting that only 144,000 Jews were saved during the Tribulation) Thank you.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 11, 2014 18:39:16 GMT
Well, we've discussed Predestination on this forum before. One may consider it "milk" but my only concern is that some who believe in Predestination don't bother to spread the 'good news' precisely BECAUSE of their belief that some are Predestined to be saved and others are not. That is contrary to what Scripture teaches.
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Post by LS on Mar 11, 2014 18:48:39 GMT
Shiloh, as for those who believe in predestination, that shouldn't be an excuse to avoid preaching the gospel, as there's no way to know who has and who has not been predestined by The Lord for salvation.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 11, 2014 18:54:41 GMT
That's my belief too, Jim. I completely agree. But there ARE those who hold to that view that don't bother.
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Post by LS on Mar 11, 2014 20:11:40 GMT
Yes! The "let God sort it out" crowd, of which I was one at various times in my life. That said, I do not bring up the gospel unless the person I'm speaking with brings it up first. God created me that way and I'm not convicted about it in the least. One can live out the gospel without necessarily talking about it all of the time. Some are called to preach and teach, I just happen to be a different part of the body, so to speak.
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