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Post by intojoy on Mar 11, 2014 22:26:29 GMT
Election as the bible presents it is an antinomy.
God ordained both the end and the means for our salvation, included in our salvation was the presentation of the gospel by other believers as well as their prayers.
The elect are just as lost as the non elect until they believe.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 22:29:44 GMT
I think I agree with what people are saying here. It's odd. Not the agreeing part, lol, but I mean that of the few times so far that I've talked about the Lord with an unbeliever or a believer misled by false doctrines (for instance, works salvation), I didn't plan it. It either just happened randomly in person, or I saw something on Twitter or Facebook that I just couldn't stay quiet about.
But in a couple of those times I did consider it myself beforehand and asked the Lord to lead me to it if that was His will. Without Him, I know that it's fruitless no matter what I say. I still feel like those times when I did talk to someone, trying to get them to at least consider going to Him or explaining to them about the Truth regarding salvation or a certain thing, were fruitless, and in a couple of those times I even got frustrated because the people I was explaining things to just would not budge from, specifically, the Catholic doctrines, and yes, I did use Scripture in what I was saying.
I guess this is another thing about me that needs work, that desk flipping (not literally and I'm probably exaggerating with this illustration, lol). Maybe "abruptness" is a more suitable word, but I got like that during those times because I just don't get how a believer can see and read by themselves something in Scripture and still choose to go with teachings that go against what It says. My abruptness is still without excuse, I know, and I do feel bad about it afterwards.
But hey, I can only see and do so much, and maybe the Lord did use those times for something, or perhaps will someday. I think trust in the Lord is a very important thing. Not necessarily a "let God sort it out, and never speak a word" way, but do whatever the Lord leads you to do and just trust Him. I've told Him before that if there is someone that He wants me to reach or something He wants me to do, to just lead me to it. |
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 11, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
Brotherjohn, I have a hard time understanding how people can read the bible and understand things differently than I do. I can be wrong, however.  I agree with your approach here: |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 23:25:16 GMT
Liz, yes. I mean, I can understand it if it's something that's a little more difficult to understand at first or that requires a little more studying, but the verses that I talked about the most were the Ephesians 2:8-9 ones, which in my opinion are simpler to understand.
To contradict that thought, one of the people I was talking to during those times replied that there are many "interpretations" of Scripture and that it all depends on how you "interpret" it. That's when I was a little abrupt and said "How much interpretation do these two verses require?!".
And the other person to whom I was talking about it as well on a different time, was reading it out loud themselves and then, to also contradict that thought and support their Catholic ingrained idea of works-based salvation, continued reading into Ephesians 2:10. I even said, "Yes, after we are saved the Holy Spirit will lead us to good works. Not for our salvation." It didn't seem to matter still, and after that was when I also lost patience and left the room abruptly. I can understand that these people were raised with those beliefs in mind, but to still read it fresh from the Word and choose otherwise is just frustrating for me to see. But it was still really uncalled for, me acting like that, and I should trust in the Lord. That's why I said that needs work, lol.
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 11, 2014 23:39:31 GMT
Okay, Brotherjohn, now I get where you are coming from. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent.
I can understand your frustration though, it's difficult when you want people to see. I have loved ones who also do not see, but I realize that until the Lord opens their eyes, they are not going to see. All I can do is to be patient, pray for them, and live a Christian life. I trust in the Lord and that's all I can do.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 12, 2014 3:19:37 GMT
I agree with that, John. Paul said he did not even judge himself. The point is, where is our heart? If our heart is right toward the Lord, He will use maybe even a small sentence or something we don't even remember saying, a kind word, etc. all to His glory. We probably don't even know what works will be burnt up or which ones are right in the eyes of the Lord. I will always believe, it's where our heart is. That's what matters and not having an attitude of who's right and who's wrong. I hear peoples' doctrine but not always does it come across right and often times, they are preaching to the choir.
I don't necessarily agree that the 2 witnesses will come from the 144,000. The 144,000 don't even know who they are yet. Scripture is clear that one is Elijah and the other is either Moses or Enoch. I tend to believe the latter is Moses, but that's whole different subject that's been rehashed over and over again.
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Post by LS on Mar 12, 2014 5:58:42 GMT
Shiloh wrote: Shiloh, I couldn't agree more. I cannot tell you how many times I've said something unknowingly, and as soon as the last word passes my lips, I either sense I've struck a nerve in the other person or I realize "too late" what I just said; meaning that had I thought it through beforehand, I probably wouldn't have said it; yet it was something that The Lord wanted me to say to a particular person. Now there are other times when I just should've kept my mouth shut!  |
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Post by Benjamin on Mar 12, 2014 10:05:59 GMT
I was teased quite a lot through High School, because... I started working with children when I was about 13. I was doing youth camps, mostly, at that time, though by year 10 I was doing some ministry through the church youth groups too. Kids are... well, not always the nicest creatures, so... I got teased for things that you really just don't joke about. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. Anyway... I never said anything. Never complained, never did anything. Ever.
One year, about five years ago (so, I would have been 28), I had a phone call from a guy I went to High School with.
He called... to thank me. He said "I'm calling because I just became a Christian - and I wanted to let you know that you're a big part of the reason why. I teased you for YEARS about teaching the Bible to kids, and you never once said anything. Thank you... for being a witness for me, even then."
In my life, I've spoken with plenty of people about Jesus. Some at length, some briefly, and some... well, some might only know that I love Jesus Christ because of the way I live. ...but whatever it is, however they get that message... all it needs to be is a seed. I can't say I've had many other people come to me and tell me that my life has impacted theirs. Maybe I never will - and I suspect that, in these last days, it's become increasingly rare that any of us will hear those type of things again. ...but the proof is there. We never know just what kind of use God will find for us... and we may be the only reflection of Jesus that people ever see.
Shine brightly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2014 14:34:01 GMT
Agreed, everyone. 
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Post by shiloh on Mar 12, 2014 15:52:42 GMT
Benjamin, what a great account! You know, that must have really been something to have someone say that to you later. We never know how we will impact someone. The point is, you were a willing vessel in the face of adversity. I believe there are blessings and rewards for that.
I remember things (albeit it a short thing sometimes) my spiritual mother would say to me out of the blue when we worked togethr in a hospital. She's come up to me after passing out meds and say something simple like, "Ren, remember this. Obedience is better than sacrifice." just out of the blue. I knew her mind was somewhere in that field. Years later, before she went to be with the Lord, her and I had many conversations and wrote back and forth (she wasn't a computer person) and I have STACKS of letters from her.
Anyway, I would bring up something I remembered that she told me, even if it was a simple sentence and she said, "Oh, honey. I don't even remember saying that." I could list a zillion things she said to me.
Anyway, although I always believed Jesus was my Saviour, none of the Word came alive to me until God put her in my path. I must have been 19 years old when the Word finally came alive in my heart. Being from a Catholic background, we were discouraged about reading scripture because we were told that only the pope and priests could decipher it. Brainwashing technique, much?
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Post by LS on Mar 12, 2014 17:28:28 GMT
Benjamin that's a great story and thank you for sharing it. You said so much about yourself in that post that I think everyone here will see you in a different light from now on, I know I will. That had to feel really good hearing from your former classmate. We had a 40th grammar school class reunion a few years ago that a classmate and I organized; we had no idea the can of worms we were opening by doing so, because neither one of us had been teased during those years. But it was readily apparent among some classmates that those were not good years for them. Some carried ill feeling towards other classmates and one teacher in particular (who went to the reunion) all the way to the reunion. It was unbelievable. Here we were trying to get everyone together for a good time and there were some who felt the need to vent after 40 years! Anyway, I'm happy to hear that the guy contacted you with something positive to say. Shiloh, I really enjoyed your story as well; she sounded like a wonderful woman Regarding the RCC and their not encouraging scripture study, that was the final straw for me with the RCC. I belonged to a Parish of around 8,000 members that had a bible study headed up by a woman who also happened to be a M.D. She really had a wonderful heart and ... well, I can't say enough nice things about her. Anyway, there were only about 7 of us who attended this bible study (out of 8,000!). One day we were sitting together in a room (for the bible study) that was in the same building as the Rectory. A priest happened to be walking past, sticks his head in the door and says, "You're wasting your your time, you'll never understand that". I would've loved to have known what was going through our group leader's mind at that time, but she responded gracefully and we went on about our business. For me, that was my last bible study in the RCC. |
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 12, 2014 18:31:44 GMT
Thank you Benjamin for sharing that part of your life, I just felt moved reading of your experiences. What a telling testimony of how our lives are our best witness to others. Thank you also to Shiloh, Brotherjohn, and LS for discussing parts of your lives.
I know spiritually we are siblings, but even now I feel so connected to the people who contribute to this board.
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