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Post by elizabeth on Feb 12, 2014 18:36:57 GMT
I see dpr is asking about the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and I was wondering about them too. I was wondering about them, and the two witnesses. Are they going to show up in the first half of the tribulation? Is there a scripture that says this, I can't find one with a time reference on it.
Will they be witnessing at the same time? Will they be witnessing to the same group of people?
Elizabeth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 18:56:30 GMT
The first half,I tend to think the Lord's redemption will be completed before his wrath is poured out.
That is a far as gentiles are concerned!
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2014 19:12:51 GMT
I agree with dpr, Elizabeth. It's the first half. The 144,000 are commisioned first but the 2 witnesses don't appear until Revelation 11.
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Post by elizabeth on Feb 12, 2014 20:18:51 GMT
Here's what confuses me about the 2 witnesses. They are to prophesy for 1260 days, so it seems logical for those days to be the first, or the last half. However, as Shiloh says, they don't appear until Revelation 11. That would mean the last 1260 days? It just seems kind of strange, that they would be leaving when Christ was returning. Maybe no one else finds this strange.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 12, 2014 20:58:32 GMT
Maybe it does seem strange but that's a possibility. However, I don't believe the actual return of the Lord can be known either. Just as we know the time is near for the church to be called up but we do not know the date. I don't believe His physical return (and us coming back with Him) can be known. The reason I say that is because of a few verses but my explantion would go on way too long and bore you to tears. Here's an interesting article that you might be interested in though. I hope this isn't straying too far off the topic and if it does, I sincerely apologize. gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/the-three-questions-of-matt-24/ Fair Use for Information and Educational Purposes |
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Post by elizabeth on Feb 12, 2014 21:14:50 GMT
So I guess it's the 144,000 in the first half, and the two witnesses in the second half. Thanks for the link to the Kelley article, it was good. Thanks Shiloh and dpr.
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 12, 2014 22:16:30 GMT
I'd agree with that.
Revelation has "pauses" that occur at key points in the text. There is a pause between the 6th and 7th seal, 6th and 7th trumpet, and 6th and 7th bowl.
The 144,000 appear during the "break" between the sixth and seventh seals.
I believe the seal judgements are all in the first half (roughly) of the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation, so that suggests that their ministry will commence some time into the tribulation, but definitely during the first few years.
As far as the Two Witnesses are concerned...
the text ties their ministry in with the temple, when it has been downtrodden by the Gentiles, meaning that it cannot come any sooner than the midpoint of the Tribulation (as that is when Antichrist violates the temple).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 22:45:37 GMT
Where does it say the Two Witnesses begin their ministry after the gentiles tread down the court of the Temple and the holy city?
"2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." - Revelation 11:2-3 (KJV)
It says "and" at the beginning of verse 3 but it could mean either after or during. Maybe I'm missing something else here that would tie them in with the latter half of Daniel's 70th week.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 13, 2014 2:20:33 GMT
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 13, 2014 2:29:38 GMT
Er... sorry, I've put that backwards - they don't begin their ministry after the gentiles tread down the court, they begin it WHEN the gentiles tread down the court - that is, after Antichrist violates the temple.
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Post by elizabeth on Feb 13, 2014 3:12:24 GMT
Thanks Shiloh, isn't that something, that you got a reply on a subject you were even talking about on the board today.
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Post by shelayne on Feb 13, 2014 22:10:35 GMT
Hmm, I always believed that the Two Witnesses' ministry begins before the Great Tribulation. That their ability to shut down the skies, so it will not rain, which would cause famine, and that they can turn water to blood and cause all sorts of plagues corresponds with Seal and Trumpet Judgments. Also no one is able to kill them until their testimony is complete, and as the Bible clearly says they will prophesy for 1260 days.
Revelation 11:7
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
Which would indicate that the AC now is fully Satan and has been given the power to overcome them. Up until that point, no one is able to overcome the Two Witnesses. I have a paper somewhere that has a really good detailing of the ministry of the Two Witnesses. With reference to the time period, it has one of the best defenses for an earlier ministry in that if it were to be in the second half of the Tribulation-- the last 1260 days, would the people really ask "Who is like the beast and who can make war with him?" Because of the power and authority granted the Two Witnesses, the answer would clearly be, "Who can make war with him? The Two Witnesses." Recall that this question is asked when the AC is fully empowered by Satan, and that is in the final 1260 days of the Tribulation.
I will see if I have it in my files and post it in case anyone wants to take a peek at it.
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Post by shelayne on Feb 13, 2014 22:41:44 GMT
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 13, 2014 23:08:14 GMT
Hmm...
I'm not sure I agree with that text... and I'll explain why, but it HAS given me a few points to ponder.
1) It claims that the two Witnesses will be the ones to restore sacrifice to the temple, and uses this to suggest that they must therefore be in the first half of the tribualtion. Revelation never states, though, that the witnesses have anything to do with temple worship, merely that they prophesy; and while the author of the text cites Zechariah 4 to suggest that the "two olive trees" were Joshua and Zerubbabel, who restored worship, and are symbolically here in Revelation doing the same thing, Zechariah 4 doesn't actually refer to Joshua and Zerubbabel as being olive trees - in fact, I'd suggest that the latter part of the prophecy was always regarding the Two Witnesses, and not about Joshua and Zerubbabel at all (the first half of chapter 4 reads as a message to Zerubbabel, the second half doesn't).
2) The writer of the article makes the (false) assumption that the 1,260 days in which the Two Witnesses minister must fall either in the first half, or in the second half of the Tribulation. Scripture, I think, suggests an overlap. The Witnesses commence their ministry prior to the Seventh Trumpet judgement, which would leave one judgement from the first half of the Tribulation to go before the second half commences. This judgement could last for months (no time frame is given Scripturally), which would certainly provide adequate time for the Witnesses to minister. Perhaps, as the author points out, this is why the Witnesses are to minister for 1,260 days, whereas the temple is to be downtrodden for 42 months. It's the same length of time, but perhaps they're not the same actual time period - and perhaps this is why Scripture uses two different terms; to distinguish them from one another.
3) the claim that the Witnesses can't possibly be present when the world says "who is able to make war with the Beast?" doesn't add up. If the world sees the Beast rise and exert his power, it makes perfect sense that they'd extol the beast and ignore the witnesses. His claim that "no one can answer 'the two witnesses!'" doesn't necessarily equate; the world has never recognised or loved prophets - why would this be any different? Plus, the witnesses are not there to "make war" - with the Beast, or with anyone else... they're there to minister, as God's servants, to the world. Their use of "fire from their mouths" is contingent on others trying to harm them - not on their desire to harm others (11:5).
...a few other things jump out at me, but I'll leave that there for discussion -
Either way though, it was a good article - worth the read.
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Post by shelayne on Feb 14, 2014 1:16:49 GMT
Yeah, I wasn't quite following the line on the Witnesses being the ones that restored temple sacrifices, but did find his thoughts interesting, and it gave me something to further read. I also don't think that this ministry necessarily has to be completely in either the first half or second half, and would argue that it would be very unlikely that the entire ministry is during the Great Tribulation, but the use of 1260 days or 3.5 years makes a pretty easy dividing point, doesn't it? It's almost like a part in the hair.  But you are right, nothing says it is an either/or. I still find his comments about "Who can make war with the beast?" compelling, as the whole world will be watching the Witnesses. Why will the world pay attention to these two? These are Prophets on a whole different level. The people are seething with rage over the Prophets because they are the "cause" of all their hardship. The drought, the plagues, the blood water. All the death will be placed at their feet. The people will be out for blood. As I contemplate these events, I foresee a complete military assault on them that will fail spectacularly. So, I am thinking the world will be paying attention to these guys. If they weren't they wouldn't spend three days partying and giving gifts in celebration over their demise. It would be grand, but not a goonabenderforthreedays grand. It could be a matter of the unbelievers doing the ole "My god is bigger than your God!" type of thing, as this back and forth between the two escalates, with the False Prophet calling down fire, and the Two Witnesses turning water into blood... very reminiscent of Moses and the Pharaoh. And, sadly, the people's hearts will continue to harden.  Thank you for your thoughts on this.  |
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Post by Benjamin on Feb 14, 2014 1:25:29 GMT
I think you've actually hit the nail on the head there...
you've equated (either knowingly or otherwise) the ministry of the Two Witnesses with the ministry of the false prophet -
and I think THAT is a far more likely scenario than Witnesses vs. Beast.
The ministry of the Two Witnesses is one of conversion - bringing people to Christ throughout the duration of their time here on earth.
The Beast, in contrast, is focused almost purely on war. Revelation 12 shows him filled with blood-lust as he tries to destroy first Israel, then the tribulation saints (and here, he succeeds, while with Israel, he fails).
I think essentially the Beast will be so focused on death and destruction by this point that the Witnesses and their aim to bring the world to Christ will be almost irrelevant to him - not that they won't be an annoyance and an irritation, but I think the Beast will be so focused on trying to prevent the return of Christ (through the destruction of Israel) that the witnesses won't seem quite so important.
Make sense?
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Post by shelayne on Feb 14, 2014 2:50:16 GMT
Ahhh, very interesting, Benjamin. I think that makes a lot of sense.
Revelation 13:11-18
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
The False Prophet will be busy, busy, busy making converts as well. The choice will then become-- convert or die. Up until that point, though, I really can see the parallels of the contrasting ministries.
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Post by intojoy on Mar 10, 2014 6:49:15 GMT
The second coming will be known because of the desolation of the Temple. Once this takes place, Yeshua said His coming is nigh and it will be exactly 3&1/2 years after that event that Messiah returns.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It is a PDF file: 
But you are right, nothing says it is an either/or.
