What's Wrong with Calvinism?

Okay, thanks, Benjamin.  I'm going to watch this after I go and take my shower and get all comfortable in my pajamas..lolol..  This sounds interesting.

Yeah, I'd bumped into some of Spurgeon's Calvinist stuff when I was younger - most Presbyterians like to claim him as one of their own, and quote him extensively

I like his writing too.

The thing is... ultimately, this doesn't affect anybody's salvation. Whether they have their soteriology right or wrong, provided that they believe in Christ Alone, through faith alone, they're going to be okay.

The difficult part for me is that I feel that this particular view of Christ's finished work on the cross actually compromises God's own character, and the significance of the cross.

The Bible repeatedly tells us that Christ died for all. Calvinism says He died for some.
The Bible repeatedly tells us salvation is available to all who call on the name of the Lord. Calvinism tells us that salvation is available - as long as you're one of the elect.

Of course, most Calvinists will argue this point, but as Walls eloquently points out, there's something decidedly disingenuous about calling people to Christ when some of them, according to Calvinism, literally CAN'T... not only because they are unregenerate, but because Christ didn't die for them.

When you break it down, it borders on heresy, it really does (says the one who goes to a Presbyterian church).

Shiloh, I am bumping this for you.

I'm going to watch this again without getting up this time.  He was making sense to me though.

i have never understood Calvinism. i know many good Bible teachers such as John McCarther teach it, but there are just too many passages in Scripture where Jesus AND the Father make it perfectly clear that the gospel is open to anyone who is willing to receive it. of course, we need the Holy Spirit to draw us to God, but i cannot believe that the Holy Spirit deliberately ignores billions of people and never allows them the chance to know Christ Jesus our Lord.

most Calvinists i have spoken with almost have a "script" ready to defend their TULIP. the "L" really is the thing that makes me question what these people are thinking. the idea of "limited atonement", that Jesus didn't die for everyone's sins, just goes contrary to everything i read in the Bible.

so why do so many believers in Jesus embrace this doctrine? i think i would find it almost impossible to live a Christian life if i believed that my lost loved ones may just be part of the un-elect, the ones that Jesus doesn't care about enough to save. because, when you get down to it, that is what Calvinists are saying. they are saying that there are people, people we love, whom Jesus didn't die for. and i think that is a lie from satan himself.

I remember a few years ago reading a book by a man who defended Calvinism.  I just felt a check in my spirit the whole time I was reading it, because scriptures kept popping into my head, like 2 Peter 3:9 and John 3:16, for example.  He explained all about T.U.L.I.P. and what each one meant.  

I do remember him saying in the book, (I'm paraphrasing):

"It's not so much that some people are destined for heaven and some are destined for hell.  It's more along the lines that since God can see into the future, He knows who is going to be saved and who isn't. So, because of that,  the ones He knows who are going to be saved, He gives them "irresistible grace" that compels them to ask Jesus into their hearts, and the ones who He knows is going to hell, He does not give them this same grace, but rather lets them alone and doesn't draw them to Him in the same way." 

Hummm.....I kind of wondered about that one, because I have observed the life of believers and non-believers alike, (in person and the ones I have read about), and it looked like the ones who God knew were going to be saved, He would be drawing them and protecting them long before they got saved. And by the same token, the ones who rejected Christ did not seem (at least outwardly) to have the Lord drawing them at all.  An example of that is stories of people who eventually became believers who, as unbelievers, tried to commit suicide. For some reason or the other, someone would find them in the nick of time and rush them into the hospital before it was too late.  So in their case, it seemed like the Lord intervened in that persons life. Or others, like Marilyn Monroe, who allegedly told Billy Graham, "I don't need your Jesus", was found dead in her apartment a week later, and nobody came on time to save her life.  Just things like that. I'm not saying that is the case every single time (there are believers, I am sure, who successfully commit suicide), but I have read many stories where the Lord will stop a believer before he/she kills themselves.  

Anyone have any thoughts about that?

Okay, going back to listen to the rest of the video now.  So far, it is really interesting. 

If God knows who will come, why does the grace need to be irresistable?

This is a fairly "soft" form of Calvinism - trying to reconcile God's foreknowledge with predestination in a way that is palatable, but it still compromises God's character.
Why do I say this? ...because we have been given the mandate to preach the gospel to all. We've been told Christ died for all. We've been told that God is love.
...and yet that offer cannot be accepted without God specifically providing irresistible grace. What this means is that the unsaved cannot effectively BE saved - and thus we're preaching to people who couldn't come, even if they wanted to - yet Scripture says "whosoever will may come". Not "whosoever God's will draws may come", but whosoever, of THEIR OWN WILL, may come... can come.

The great tragedy here is that it forces the gospel to become disingenuous. The preacher says "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - but some of the people in the audience literally CANNOT believe, literally CANNOT be saved, because God does not will it to be so. Rather, Scripture says "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".

Now, Calvinists try to explain this one away by claiming that God has multiple types of will - his "prescriptive" will, his "permissive will" and his "sovereign will". The problem is, Scripture doesn't make that distinction, either literally (Scripture does not use multiple words for "will", which it would if the above were true), or doctrinally. Calvinists, though, do, because they MUST, or else God seems like a harsh, uncaring master. The truth though, is that "God is not willing that any should perish" is not indicative of God making a choice on behalf of man, but the fact that God's will and man's will are different - and here, we have choices of our own to make.

"Whosoever will, may come", indeed.

Ok, finished watching the video.  Usually as a rule, I don't watch videos that are an hour or more, but this was was exceptionally good.  

I was rather surprised at one of the precepts of Calvinism was that God doesn't love everyone.  Say what?  How could anyone who has read the Bible possibly believe that? 1 John 4:8 says that God IS love!  And that's only ONE scripture!  I'm wondering if they are basing that premise on Malachi 1:1-3 and Romans 9:13.  But the way that I interpret that is God hated Esau's works, but not Esau himself.  

It seems to me that Calvinists took Romans 9:10-24 and took it out of context. These scriptures say that the Lord has mercy on some, and hardens others; the purpose of God according to election might stand and not works but to Him who calls;  the Lord saying that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have compassion; and from the same lump of clay will He make one vessel of honor and one of dishonor. The way I interpret these scriptures is that the Lord, being sovereign, orchestrates everything according to His will and purpose, like when Joseph was taken away as a slave but became the second in command in Egypt in order to save the nation of Israel from famine, or when the Lord hardened the Pharaoh's heart not to let the people go in order to display His power and His will in delivering the Israelites from bondage. 

Anyway, this was a good video, I enjoyed watching it. 

Ben says: yet Scripture says "whosoever will may come". Not "whosoever God's will draws may come."

Oh but it does. John 6:44 my friend. Scripture says both. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him.

Personally, I know I wouldn't be Christian unless God specifically drew me and called me. I didn't wake up one day and decide to follow Jesus with no outside influence. There was a very specific calling in my life to come to Christ.

~~Becka

...that's not quite what I said - or at least, not quite what I meant.

I was referring to God's will - as in Irresistible Grace, not in terms of God calling men and drawing them to Him.
The problem for Calvinists is that Scripture refers to BOTH things occurring - both "whosoever will, may come" *AND* "no man may come unless the Father draw him". Calvinism denies the first half for the sake of the second, in the name of "the sovereignty of God". Scripture presents a picture in which God calls, and man responds; not because he must, but because he can.

becka, i totally agree with you that unless the Holy Spirit works in our hearts, there is no way we could ever find Jesus. the question is: does the Holy Spirit call everybody? i believe He does. those who listen to His voice, come to Jesus. those who reject His call, will be lost. but the Calvinist says that the Holy Spirit just lets some people go through life and never calls them to the cross. i find this plain crazy.

did not our Lord say what would it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? why would Jesus warn people about hell if He knew they would never have the chance to repent and be saved? no, i think God calls each and every person at some point in their life. those who ask for more, will be given more. but those who reject the light they have............well, maybe no more light will be given. but every person who is in hell today is there because they rejected God's call, not because they were ignored by the Holy Spirit.

Limited atonement is wrong. And it is actually the perseverance of God who saves not our persevering. And Calvin taught that salvation preceded faith which made faith the gift and not salvation the gift. These are errors in my observation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Turn that mad to joy buddy!
Romans 15:1-5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk