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Post by intojoy on Mar 10, 2014 6:40:30 GMT
We are beings that were created with a need for unconditional all accepting love. The problem is that none of us can give this kind of love that we so desperately need because all of our love is conditional in some way. The only one who could give this love we need is the Messiah.
When we forgive, someone pays the debt. And forgiving requires suffering. If someone breaks a lamp in someone's home, the owner of that lamp can say: I forgive you, I will replace the lamp. If he does, he suffers the debt, he goes without light in that part of the home. Or he can force the other man to pay the debt, somebody will always pay the debt. If we refuse to forgive, we are forcing the other to suffer for his action, we can sometimes even take pleasure in seeing the other pay the debt but if we do this, we are not really forgiving.
This is exactly what the Messiah did for you and for me, He paid our debt. And if we read the accounts of Messiah's death it tells us that He was silent. What we don't have in this example is Jesus manning up and being a tough willed person, what Messiah showed to us is that He completely forgives us and gave us His all accepting, unconditional love in order so that we could become the beings he created us to become. Our problem is that we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. The most valuable gift I ever received was not a sinless holy life (the more I try not to sin the more sin I do) but it is the desire to forgive others that don't want forgiveness. And that is all of us. Jesus prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". We need to take that example of God's unconditional love for us and begin to learn how to give that love to others - Father forgive others for they know not what they do. What are you and I willing to place upon the altar? We need to yield ourselves upon the altar by being humble and forgiving others as Christ forgave us. If we do this, we can experience true joy and true peace and we can learn to give each other that kind of unconditional love even if its in just a small way. And as we grow we will learn to become servants of the Most High God.
We have been freely forgiven by God.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 9:21:39 GMT
You've made some good points, IntoJoy. I really liked the example of the broken lamp.
I think forgiveness is extremely important in the life of a Christian. One of my main reasons for forgiving is that I want to keep my heart pure before the Lord at all times, and that is impossible if I am holding a grudge against someone. It is so not worth it.
Secondly, another reason I believe that forgiveness is important is because when we refuse to forgive someone, we are actually holding ourselves hostage emotionally to that person. Here we are, filled with hurt and anger like a poison running through our system, and the other person is completely unaware of how we feel. Or if they are aware of it, they are getting a lot of satisfaction out of our misery while we are still in bondage to the bitterness, hurt and anger.
A third reason why I believe that it is essential to forgive is because the devil can use unforgiveness to give us a root of bitterness and hinder our walk with the Lord. How can the love of God flow through us freely if we have a bitter and unforgiving spirit? It hinders our walk and renders us useless when it comes to ministering to others. People sense when another person has a chip on their shoulder....it's like a poison that spreads to the people around them.
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Post by morningstar on Mar 10, 2014 19:56:45 GMT
Good post intojoy...I've seen bitterness and anger rob people of any Joy or Peace that we may find in the Lord. Sometimes it is difficult to forgive an injury that is done to you or loved ones, but if we try to overcome this in the flesh it will never work, only through Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can this be done.
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 10, 2014 20:35:31 GMT
Quote: This is exactly what the Messiah did for you and for me, He paid our debt. Intojoy, we are to freely forgive, but I feel we have to mention the Cross of Calvary. Had Christ not gone to the Cross, we would not be free to forgive, because we would not be free ourselves. Here's a quote from Principles of Spiritual Growth, by Miles Stanford: "As our Substitute He went to the cross alone, without us, to pay the penalty of our sins; as our Representative, He took us with Him to the cross, and there, in the sight of God, we all died together with Christ. We may be forgiven because He died in our stead; we may be delivered because we died with Him. God’s way of deliverance for us, a race of hopeless incurables, is to put us away in the cross of His Son, and then to make a new beginning by re-creating us in union with Him, the Risen, Living One (II Cor. 5:17). It is the Holy Spirit who will make these great facts real and true in our experience as we cooperate with Him; and so the plague of our hearts will be stayed, and we shall be transformed into the likeness of Christ." click herePraise you Lord, and thank you for being crucified for our sin, and dying for our sins. You are our wondrous Saviour. Hallelujah. And as for forgiveness, I agree wholeheartedly with what Morningstar has written. As we look to the Lord, forgiveness will come. As we look to the Lord, we cannot hate, or even strongly dislike.
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Post by intojoy on Mar 11, 2014 5:35:26 GMT
Quote: This is exactly what the Messiah did for you and for me, He paid our debt. Intojoy, we are to freely forgive, but I feel we have to mention the Cross of Calvary. Had Christ not gone to the Cross, we would not be free to forgive, because we would not be free ourselves. Here's a quote from Principles of Spiritual Growth, by Miles Stanford: "As our Substitute He went to the cross alone, without us, to pay the penalty of our sins; as our Representative, He took us with Him to the cross, and there, in the sight of God, we all died together with Christ. We may be forgiven because He died in our stead; we may be delivered because we died with Him. God’s way of deliverance for us, a race of hopeless incurables, is to put us away in the cross of His Son, and then to make a new beginning by re-creating us in union with Him, the Risen, Living One (II Cor. 5:17). It is the Holy Spirit who will make these great facts real and true in our experience as we cooperate with Him; and so the plague of our hearts will be stayed, and we shall be transformed into the likeness of Christ." click herePraise you Lord, and thank you for being crucified for our sin, and dying for our sins. You are our wondrous Saviour. Hallelujah. And as for forgiveness, I agree wholeheartedly with what Morningstar has written. As we look to the Lord, forgiveness will come. As we look to the Lord, we cannot hate, or even strongly dislike. Amen Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by shiloh on Mar 12, 2014 17:10:42 GMT
Great thread, intojoy. Those are all wonderful responses and I really can't add anything. Everyone said it all. Leeza, I couldn't agree more with what you said about us being held hostage and the enemy using unforgiveness as a weapon. Often times, it does us more harm than the person who is not forgiven. I believe there are times where reconciliation is not possible. The Lord didn't tell us to make our backs like a road to walk on, either. But, we CAN forgive even if no contact is made. It depends on the circumstances. For example, maybe it involved one of your children or a person takes advantage of your forgiveness because afterall, "You're a Christian and you HAVE to forgive me." attitude comes into play and they keep doing the same thing over and over. There ARE limits and there are times where relationships that have been so damaging in peoples lives that those relationships are beyond repair. As sad as that is, we need to lay in our Lord's Hands. I've seen Him at work in those times. The important thing is this. "Lord, help me to forgive. I want to but I don't know how." If that is our hearts desire, the Lord helps us to let go of it and we see His mighty Hand at work. I didn't mean to get off topic here. I don't think anyone here is referring to the things I have in mind. I am sure to be gentle with those who are unable to forgive yet because sometimes hurts run so deep, there are no words to describe. There are times where I feel as though I can see peoples hearts literally breaking.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2014 17:50:38 GMT
Shiloh, thank you for the feedback to what I said. I appreciate that.
I liked what you said here:
Sometimes you bend over backwards being forgiving that the other person just takes advantage of it, and eventually those relationships can be beyond repair unless the Lord intervenes.
I can also relate to "Lord help me forgive, I don't know how." That has happened to me in the past where a person I worked with was very hurtful with her cold remarks. When I would get home, I would have to forgive again. But believe me, I couldn't do it in my own strength.
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Post by intojoy on Mar 12, 2014 17:54:18 GMT
In 2011 I had an employee fall five stories at work . Miraculously his equipment got caught in a tree and he walked away with a visit to the ER to put staples in his head and chipped a tooth. I cried when my wife called me and notified me of the accident, I thought the worst had happened.
Later a competitor of mine called me and claimed to me that I had fallen and that I was being dishonest. I laughed it off and said to him that he could call my pastor and he would find out that everyone at my church was praying for my employee. I thought that would be the end of it because my competitor goes to the mother church here in the state I live in, our kids are friends and have spent the night over at each other's homes.
About a week later my wife called me at work and said that a private investigator was at our door asking if he could check my head for staples. She called the brother (competitor) and he proceeded to tell her that I was a liar and could not be trusted. In the past circa 2007 I had a contract with a local bank for about 50k to service all of the branches. The contract was thru another company and I was their sub. My competitor went into the bank and pleaded that they not give me the work claiming I was understaffed, a lie. The bank ended up keeping the vendor they had and he didn't even get that job anyway.
I felt like this guy who owns a huge biz and has 85% of the market share was being a hypocrite.
More later (there's a huge trial that came)
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Post by LS on Mar 12, 2014 18:17:20 GMT
Intojoy, I have one question, why would your competitor think that it was you that was injured? Why did he go to such great lengths to try and prove it was you? What difference would that have made to him even if it had been? Just curious. Thanks!
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Post by intojoy on Mar 13, 2014 3:14:41 GMT
In 2011 I had an employee fall five stories at work . Miraculously his equipment got caught in a tree and he walked away with a visit to the ER to put staples in his head and chipped a tooth. I cried when my wife called me and notified me of the accident, I thought the worst had happened. Later a competitor of mine called me and claimed to me that I had fallen and that I was being dishonest. I laughed it off and said to him that he could call my pastor and he would find out that everyone at my church was praying for my employee. I thought that would be the end of it because my competitor goes to the mother church here in the state I live in, our kids are friends and have spent the night over at each other's homes. About a week later my wife called me at work and said that a private investigator was at our door asking if he could check my head for staples. She called the brother (competitor) and he proceeded to tell her that I was a liar and could not be trusted. In the past circa 2007 I had a contract with a local bank for about 50k to service all of the branches. The contract was thru another company and I was their sub. My competitor went into the bank and pleaded that they not give me the work claiming I was understaffed, a lie. The bank ended up keeping the vendor they had and he didn't even get that job anyway. I felt like this guy who owns a huge biz and has 85% of the market share was being a hypocrite. More later (there's a huge trial that came) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I've painted my brother in a bad light. Now permit me to show you what God revealed to me about my own self. I wound up very upset and carnal. I wanted to "expose" this man to his elders and I tried. To me it was just so obvious but I did not get any support from his church, the main branch of our denomination. I was able to arrange for my pastor, his asst pastor and the two of us to sit down together and work it out. I couldn't wait for that meeting and was so offended that I called him out of his car at the school in front of our kids. I cursed at him and called him names. His young daughters cried. Because he was angry he came over to me later and threatened to have his lawyers finish me and my business. How I responded was to my doom as I told him: The Lord is my refuge! About three weeks later I fell from the very same roof five stories up. I broke my leg and my back. It would take months of learning to walk again which I can do regularly today thank you Father. I'd like to share with you why God allowed me to suffer. I'll post more later. Thank you all for your kind welcome. Blessings Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by intojoy on Mar 13, 2014 3:57:17 GMT
My life in Christ began very young. My parents had divorced before I was born, I attended San Gabriel Christian School from kindergarten to 4th grade, that year my mom died. My brothers, sister and I moved to our mom's sisters home. Sadly, she became an alcoholic as the result of losing her big sister and mother to cancer in 1974. A year earlier her husband died in an auto accident . She had five children which made us a total of 9 kids. Two of her children committed suicides Jesse 16, and Sharon 18. I eventually ran away after my older bro did. I was 16. I met up with my father and experienced extreme physical cruelty to a point when my older bro ran off and joined the navy and I ran away and lived on the streets of downtown Los Angeles - east side/skid row. After some time passed my big bro while on leave from the navy began taking me to church where I again fell in love with Yeshua. We attended Calvary chapel Costa Mesa several times a week. But because of my personal life experiences I could not overlook at that time what appeared to be other young Christians judging the youngsters of the southern cal communities we lived in. Judged them in a way that wrote off people who were living in sin and out of fellowship with God. It bothered me deeply partly because I was a young believer but mostly because of the evil I had seen that I knew most people never see. If God chose to save me at five years old and in His wisdom prepared me for the death of my mother even tho I would live ungodly for the following decade, only to not leave me hopeless, I knew that the relationships we as Christians have with God is not based on our righteousness. That year my older brother died in my arms from another accident. I wound up with my abusive father and would lose the decade of my twenties in an ungodly manner. But eventually my dad died and I met my wife at church and fathered three born again children. It was with this baggage that I looked at my fellow Christian competitor thru a hyper critical lens. For me he was the epitome of some of the weaker areas doctrinally of the Calvary Chapel here that we attend. The evil one used my foolish attitude towards the brothers in Christ to whom different doctrines are accepted. Rather than rejoicing in the work of God that was done in my life, my brothers life and all of those to whom Chuck Smith and others in that ministry have been used and blessed by, I thought I was superior and looked down on them. After a month in bed I wrote a letter to the elders apologizing for my behavior. I never sent it because they really never cared much about what went on between us two businessmen. But writing in it was what I knew I had lacked - love. Several months went by and I was listening to a bible teacher who spoke on Romans chapter 15. He pointed out something that I'd never ever caught before, that Paul was asking us to imitate Christ by enduring each other. Paul quotes psalm 69 and tells us that he is not bringing up Messiah's experience of being ridiculed and cursed and humiliated so that we could contemplate on His pain but rather Paul says that the quoting of that psalm is for our learning. In psalm 69 Yeshua is humiliated and beaten upon the cross by His enemies. Paul says we aught to in like manner endure with one another, our Christian brothers and sisters. The comparison of Christ's treatment from His enemies to our treatment of our brothers is of supreme significance. I just wish I never had to fall to learn about this One final thought later Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by LS on Mar 13, 2014 4:07:13 GMT
Amazing testimony, intojoy ... thank you for sharing it!
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 13, 2014 4:26:00 GMT
intojoy, I am sorry for all the trials you have gone through. I am also mindful that "all things work together for good to them that love the Lord, and are called according to His purpose."
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Post by shiloh on Mar 13, 2014 4:26:40 GMT
You have had a very tough life, intojoy. I love how you explained what God taught you. Isn't that the truth in how He teaches us in what we lack when going through trials and adversity? I'm really looking forward to reading the rest of what you have to post. I sort of got lost in that...as if I was reading an interesting book. You should write a book...this could be a movie....I already have plans for your story.....sorry. Very compelling testimony.
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Post by morningstar on Mar 13, 2014 4:44:58 GMT
Good testimoney intojoy...from that part of So.Calif. myself so I know the area that you speak of. While reading your testimony it brought this picture to mind. I have to admit this has to be my all time favorite of favorites. God Bless and Praise our Glorious Savior for His Loving Kindness.
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Post by intojoy on Mar 13, 2014 5:07:32 GMT
Thank you. There are some who have suffered much more than I have. But regardless of how or when these things happen, tears are felt equally by us all. Thankfully there is a time coming when everything we battle with, everything that we stumble in will be wiped away and we will know true joy and true happiness.
I'm far from good, my goal isn't even to be good since I'm still in this life that includes my flesh. All I can ever hope to be is humble and in that I fail repeatedly.
It's been two years now and my friend and I have made up. Like the incident in 2007 he never apologized to me. I think he probably doesn't think he needs to. But I forgive him. A final test came a few months ago when an employee of mine damaged a property to the tune of about $20k. My insurance would not pay for it so I asked a guy who works for the same Christian guy in this story to repair the damage. He agreed to bid the repairs and started work on the job. I was glad of made peace or so I thought. I received an email from the worker who was repairing our mess up and he informed me that his office notified him that he couldn't continue working on the fix for me and said that his boss needed payment for what he had done before he could proceed.
I knew this was a stab at my integrity. (Don't have any to boast in anyway), but at the time I was broke and the contractor needed this problem solved immediately so I took a family heirloom and pawned it to bring the cash over to their office and beg them to finish the work. At that moment I realized that it is more than forgiveness that God required but unconditional love. If you read the OP I mentioned that suffering is what forgiving means. This final little lesson of the interest I would be forced to pay the pawn broker was that suffering and I told my wife who by this time was fed up with everything, I told her she would never hear about the interest money I'd pay the pawn guy. Because I wanted her to realize that I truly forgive him. I understand that he struggles to forgive me for the pain I caused him in the school parking lot. I understand that for him to forgive me he has to be willing to own that pain I caused him. By taking the opportunity to see me suffer for what I did this final last time is the example of not really forgiving because truly forgiving means not enjoying when our perpetrator pays for what they've done. I hope I am sharing this experience in a manner that does not try to belittle the person I've struggled with. I know I'm capable of unforgiveness, I'm too guilty to not admit that but it is my desire to share from the beginning how God saved me and how I did not respect those men who God used and uses and how this pride literally led to a fall. There's no coincidences in my walk with Christ. Every meeting has been an opportunity to walk as a new creation and to love mercy and grace. It's hard to write some of this stuff! I'll lighten up.
Blessings
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Post by LS on Mar 13, 2014 5:41:28 GMT
What jumped out at me was the missed opportunity by the other gentleman to teach his kids a lesson on forgiveness that they'd likely never forget.
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Post by intojoy on Mar 19, 2014 7:02:29 GMT
Excerpt from Fruchtenbaum
First, the background to and the need for propitiation was the wrath of God.
Secondly , the purpose of propitiation was to remove the wrath of God.
Thirdly, the Messiah propitiated the wrath of God and rendered God propitious to humanity.
Fourthly, propitiation was not to effect a change in God; but rather, the Messiah satisfied all the demands of a righteous God, so that God is free to act on behalf of the sinner.
The fifth conclusion is based on Luke 18:13, where the publican prayed: God, be you merciful to me a sinner. The Greek word translated be merciful is the word that means, “to be propitious.” In other words, the publican prayed, “Lord, be propitiated to me, a sinner.” Since he prayed that prayer before Yeshua died, it was a valid Old Testament prayer. But it is not a valid New Testament prayer, because God has now been propitiated by the death of the Messiah.
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Post by shiloh on Mar 19, 2014 7:22:16 GMT
I agree with that, intojoy. But I'm a little confused on what you are trying to convey. I think we all still need to go to the foot of the Cross and confess. In other words, hate our sin, recognize our sin and have a change of mind and heart instead of celebrating our sin. That doesn't make us sinless. It means we agree that God is right and the Law is good. Do you know what I mean? Yes, Jesus already covered it all for us, but that also doesn't mean we celebrate our sin or don't have any remorse. I don't know about anyone else, but I feel like the publican out of gratitude for what our Lord did for us on the Cross.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 10:12:26 GMT
This is a good thread and I agree with all of you. I have to agree on asking God to help you. The will is there to forgive but something holds you back. Thankfully the Lord can help you forgive.
Intojoy: You have a strong witness and I am sure God uses that for his glory
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Post by LS on Mar 19, 2014 15:49:28 GMT
Excerpt from Fruchtenbaum First, the background to and the need for propitiation was the wrath of God. Secondly , the purpose of propitiation was to remove the wrath of God. Thirdly, the Messiah propitiated the wrath of God and rendered God propitious to humanity. Fourthly, propitiation was not to effect a change in God; but rather, the Messiah satisfied all the demands of a righteous God, so that God is free to act on behalf of the sinner. The fifth conclusion is based on Luke 18:13, where the publican prayed: God, be you merciful to me a sinner. The Greek word translated be merciful is the word that means, “to be propitious.” In other words, the publican prayed, “Lord, be propitiated to me, a sinner.” Since he prayed that prayer before Yeshua died, it was a valid Old Testament prayer. But it is not a valid New Testament prayer, because God has now been propitiated by the death of the Messiah. Speaking only for myself, Dr. Fruchtenbaum's 5th conclusion takes the simple truth of the gospel and makes it esoteric. I like what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:17
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Post by intojoy on Mar 20, 2014 2:35:59 GMT
Yea. Thanks for reading it. I didn't really have purpose for sharing it other than I read it and thought it is very well put and that perhaps someone who isn't very clear in their own understanding might read it sometime.
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