|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 12, 2014 23:42:33 GMT
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Everyone knows that when the rapture happens the dead are raised up out of sleep. But what about this statement Job made?
I have never seen a left behind movie where the heavens vanish away before the rapture happens. But yet Job said they shall NOT awake nor be raised until the heavens are no more?
Everyone pictures the sky above being just as normal as now whenever the rapture happens.
Job disagrees though.
Also everyone knows that 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-18 is the rapture because the dead that are asleep wake up from their graves.
The very next chapter starts with the word BUT which shows that Paul is still carrying on his letter about the rapture into the next chapter.
Notice what Paul says here:
1 Thessalonians 5
1 BUT of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT.
Paul is practically saying here that we Christians know the rapture comes as a thief in the night. And that the rapture will kick off the day of the lord.
Every pre tribber knows this is true. The rapture catches the world as a thief in the night.
So if Paul sees no difference in the rapture and the Day of the Lord. That must mean they happen instantaneously.
2 Peter 3
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the HEAVENS shall PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Now there is Paul and Peter agreeing that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. And Peter even agrees with Job that the HEAVENS PASS AWAY.
These are all connected in agreement. But how will we know when the DAY OF THE LORD begins?
Joel 2
31 The SUN shall be turned into darkness, and the MOON into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
There is our sign and if we believe it, then we know it comes BEFORE the day of the Lord
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN became black as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became as blood;
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the SUN be darkened, and the MOON shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the POWERS OF HEAVENS shall be SHAKEN:
Do you think maybe the reason Jesus said the powers of heavens shall be shaken is because they are passing away with a great noise and the elements are melting with fervent heat? Which is what Peter said.
If so then we know Jesus was saying Matthew 24: 29-31 comes as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT.
Everyone knows that the rapture will happen just as the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Right?
But did you know Jesus said that he will be REVEALED just the same as Lots day?
Everyone thinks Jesus is NOT revealed until the 2nd coming. Right?
If that was true then the 2nd coming would be like the day Lot left Sodom. Wheres the surprise in that?
Luke 17
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 EVEN THUS shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED.
Is Jesus revealed at the rapture? If not then the rapture is not like Lots day.
Because Jesus said that is how he is revealed.
|
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 13, 2014 0:30:13 GMT
Job is not referring to the Rapture here. He is speaking of the Day of the Lord which is not a good thing. This occurs during the tribulation and ends in judgement after the Millenium. It is not the same thing as the Bema Seat of Christ (judgement seat of Christ). The Bema seat is for rewards and not concerning our (the church's) salvation. He is referring to when all those who have rejected the Lord are raised and judged. Again, different from the Rapture, where those of us who put our faith and trust in Jesus, remain and are alive, are caught up in the clouds with the Lord. The dead in Christ rise first. Two seperate events.
The Rapture wasn't even heard of or revealed until Paul revealed it in 1 Corinthians 15:51.
|
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 13, 2014 0:53:55 GMT
Agreed.
Don't confuse the "Day of the Lord" with the Rapture. The two are not synonomous. I'd suggest to you that the phrase "Great and terrible Day of the Lord" is in fact a highly specific reference to the day of the Lord's return in judgement upon the earth. This day is detailed at length in the Old Testament prophets, and is not at all synonomous with the Rapture.
The Rapture itself was not seen by the prophets, because it did not pertain to Israel. This is why Paul says "behold, I show you a mystery" in 1 Corinthians 15; because the truth about the Rapture had not been revealed prior to that point.
This, too, is why Paul says "you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day of the Lord should overtake you like a thief". The Thessalonians were worried that the Rapture had already occurred, and that they'd missed it; that their suffering was so great that they were encountering the Day of the Lord. Paul says, though, that the Day of the Lord won't overtake them like a thief, and this is precisely because they are "not appointed to suffer wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:6), but will "meet with the Lord in the air" before that Day.
Your post has a large number of mixed metaphors, which you preface with "of course, we know that..." - when in fact that's not at all what any of us would claim. You need to be more careful with your assumptions!
|
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 13, 2014 0:57:59 GMT
...likewise with this passage:
No, the Lord is not revealed in the Rapture (this is not when "every eye shall see Him"); and no, the Rapture is not like the days of Lot (nor does Scripture claim it is). The reference in Matthew 24 to the days of Noah (oh, and let's be clear here - the days of Noah and the days of Lot are around 450 years apart) are regarding the characterising nature of the world prior to the tribulation - the implication being that people are going about their business without any regard to the judgement that is about to come.
So yes, the Second Coming will be very much like the days of Lot - in that Christ Himself will return in judgement. Isaiah paints the picture of the Lord's return:
THIS is the Day of the Lord - a day of venegance, of bloodshed, of judgement.
Zechariah talks of it too - of the Lord facing the armies of the world surrounding Jerusalem - of blood filling up the valleys to the height of a man, and of the Lord Himself obliterating the armies of the enemy in blazing fire. These verses are paralleled (briefly!) in Revelation 19:15, which says:
This is not the Rapture - it is the Day of the Lord, at the end of the Tribulation... and it is a fearful thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 13, 2014 1:05:36 GMT
Thanks for replying.
But i do not believe just because man had not heard of the rapture until Paul that GOD was clueless about it.
Just like everybody believes Isaiah 26 alludes to the rapture.
Isaiah 26
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isaiah may have not had any clue what he was writing here. But God did for I believe it was Him that inspired Isaiah.
I hold to the belief that no matter what the name of the person in the Bible was or when he was does not matter because it was ultimately Gods writing.
Just as Paul wrote it came from God
Job wrote it came from God
Isaiah wrote it came from God
|
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 13, 2014 1:23:42 GMT
...actually, I don't believe that isaiah 26 alludes to the Rapture.
I think it's fairly specifically about the events of Revelation 12 - contrast the escape of Israel into the wilderness, hiding in Petra, and the events of verse 21 with those quoted earlier from Isaiah. I know a lot of people would like it to be about the Rapture, but I don't feel that it fits.
I'm not suggesting for a second that God didn't know about the Rapture, or that He didn't inspire the Scriptures - that's not the point, the point is that the Rapture wasn't for Israel, so it wasn't revealed TO Israel. This is precisely why Paul refers to it as a "mystery", because it is something that, up until that point, had not been revealed. This is a consistent pattern in Scripture; things referred to as "mysteries" are not those things that are hidden, but those things that are about to be revealed for what they are, for the first time.
|
|
|
|
Post by LS on Mar 13, 2014 3:21:52 GMT
Sweet T, may I ask you a question? Whether a person believes in a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture, does it really make a difference in the larger scheme of things? I know the standard argument is that post-tribbers believe pre-tribbers will fall away from the faith once they experience the tribulation. So do you feel it's your calling, or ministry, to convince believers in a pre-trib rapture that we're wrong? I'm just curious as to your motive for posting here. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by morningstar on Mar 13, 2014 4:20:40 GMT
DITTO...LS....
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 13, 2014 7:14:40 GMT
Yes i do feel it's my calling. To warn everyone that i can. If i was not afraid there would be a falling away then i would not waste my time believe me on that. But here is the Bible to back up my belief for how i feel.
Luke 8
18 TAKE HEED therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while BELIEVE, and in time of temptation fall away.
Matthew 13
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when TRIBULATION or PERSECUTION ariseth because of the word, by and by he is OFFENDED.
Matthew 18
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Luke 7
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
John 16
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
The way i take this is probably more serious than you will. BUT i have a strong conviction that Jesus is desperately trying to tell us that the stoney ground Christians will accept him with joy and gladness but in a time of temptation when tribulation and persecution arises them same stoney ground Christians are offended and fall away.
The book of Hebrews warns that it is not possible to renew someone to repentance again if they ever shall fall away because it would be like crucifying Jesus all over again for them self and put him to an open shame.
I believe John 3:16 is one verse that is very misquoted by almost everyone. Every thinks it says whosoever believes WILL NOT perish but in reality it says SHOULD NOT perish. There is a difference.
Notice what the seed on good ground does though.
Luke 8
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, KEEP IT, and bring forth fruit with patience.
This means that no matter what tribulation comes their way they will keep it. While the stoney ground will be offended and fall away even though they believed.
Jesus also gave a awful warning to anyone that offends a little one that BELIEVES in him. So that is what i try not to do. If my message is only getting on here and tickling your ears by telling you that nothing bad will ever come to you because you are so special. And then say i was wrong and tribulation came with much persecution if you have not counted the cost and laid to heart what following Jesus really means then you may be offended and fall away.
If you think there is no way that you could possibly get offended. Then be careful and remember Peter had much warning before hand when jesus said he would deny him. Peter replied and said though everyone be offended and deny you Lord i will NOT. But it ended just the way Jesus said it would he even denied the most of anybody.
But later Peter did go to his death and was proud to do it.
That is what i am all about. I do not want to hurt anybody on here at all. In fact i am trying my dead level best to encourage each one of you to please count the cost. Some times it takes more FAITH if our deliverance does not come the way we expected. For example Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego told the king that IF IT BE SO God is able to deliver us out of the fiery furnace and out of thine hands.
BUT IF NOT we still will NOT bow before your image.
See they had no idea if God would deliver them or let them burn. But still yet they were very faithful. It is safe to assume they were not stoney ground at all.
Jesus also told a parable of where he sowed wheat and while men slept an enemy came and owed tares. The angels asked him if he wanted them to gather up the tares. But Jesus replied to them NO because you can't tell them apart. But at the time of harvest they will be able to tell them apart and separate them.
Jesus also tells us that NO GOOD tree can bring forth bad fruit and also NO BAD tree can bring forth good fruit.
But yet Jesus says his followers will be able to tell the good trees from the bad. Because we will know them by their fruits.
This leads a lot of unlearned people to think they can judge anyone that sins and simply i am a fruit inspector. But yet they fail to realize that the chapter starts with JUDGE NOT that ye be not judged.
So Jesus was not giving us the ability to be self righteous and judge people or to be fruit inspectors.
He was simply telling us that just like the angels we CAN NOT tell the wheat from the tares but in the time of harvest we will be able to.
The reason we will be able to do this is simple because one of the main FRUITS of the SPIRIT is FAITH. There are more but just this one will be enough to tell who is who.
We get the word tribulation from the word tribulim. A tribulim is a harvesting process where the farmer stands on a wooden board called the tribulim while it is attached to a mule that drags it over the grain. Which separated good from bad his harvest required the tribulim.
Just like when the tribulation comes right now there is so many Christians but when they start killing many will go out from because they were not all of us. For if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us. But they went out that it might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
The ones that will betray the real Christians will be the stoney ground Christians that set beside you. Maybe even family.
Mark 13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
1 Peter 4
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
2 Thessalonians 1
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Would any of you think some thing strange has happened if we find ourselves be tortured and killed? Then if so 1 Peter 4 is for you from God.
It seems that the people i talk to about this get offended at me for insinuating that they may go through a really rough time. But guess what? I put myself in the same boat. I don't think i am any better than Jesus either and if they persecuted him they will persecute me also.
Maybe you had never realized before that the stoney ground seed RECEIVED and BELIEVED. That is really something to pay attention to and i strongly urge each and every one that reads this to take heed how they receive just as Jesus started the parable.
The good ground keep it.
Now i am not saying that the power is within yourself to stay saved. Because it is not. We are saved by grace through FAITH.
And Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH
So if you don't fall away then it is only because of him and his grace. But still yet many will be offended and fall away.
Jude 1
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
|
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 13, 2014 7:52:08 GMT
That was... long - but it only requires a very simple response. My faith is in Christ. I wasn't saved by the Rapture. The Rapture didn't die on the cross for my sin, and it won't be the Rapture that calls me Home. It's not the Rapture who died once, for all, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father in heaven. Do I hope for the Rapture? Yes, I do - but my hope isn't IN the Rapture... it's in Christ. Your fear is misplaced... and I'm afraid your doctrine, even more so. You've confused two very clearly different events, and merged them into one. You may have seen these before, but they're hard to argue with:   |
|
|
|
Post by While I wait on Mar 13, 2014 9:28:33 GMT
Excellent Benjamin.
The Tribulation is God's wrath against the unbelievers, not believers.
Also notice that God does not use the Church to evangelize during the tribulation; he uses the 2 witnesses and even the angel to proclaim it. The Great Commission is over at the Rapture.
The bride of Christ, which is the believing church of Jesus, is depicted at the marriage supper of the Lamb before Christ makes His descent to earth at His second coming.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 13, 2014 14:32:14 GMT
Benjamin thanks for your reply.
Everything you said makes sense. But what i can not figure out is how you THINK that i am saying we will be raptured at the 2nd coming?
Why can no one understand what i am saying?
I KNOW there is two events that will unfold. One will be the rapture and the other will be the 2nd coming.
No one is able to give an answer let alone understand what i am saying.
I have never believed the rapture will be at the very end of the 7 years. Just as you do not believe that.
But what do you think will happen at the 6th seal?
Does the sun and moon change?
Do you believe HEAVEN DEPARTS?
Do you believe everyone on earth is hiding from his FACE since they claim to see him?
Why would they see him?
Do you believe the 6th seal is the 2nd coming?
I have done all here that i am going to do. I have warned everyone that rough times will more than likely be ahead and that we need to keep the faith no matter what.
I am glad you say you do not put all your faith in the rapture but many do.
No one even has any idea what wil happen at the 6th seal?
Will any of you please compare the 6th seal side by side with Matthew 24:29-31 and show me the difference that i am missing? Because i can't find one.
|
|
|
|
Post by LS on Mar 13, 2014 15:40:37 GMT
Thanks for answering my question, Sweet T; I have one more for you, if you don't mind. Let's say, that we all had to endure 7 years of tribulation as believers, just for sake of argument. Do you believe that God would see His children through it, protecting and providing until we had to decide whether or not we'd put our lives on the line for our beliefs? Or would we be suffering throughout like all of the rest? Just curious.
Btw, I've never met a believer whose faith lies in the rapture; they may be out there, but I've never met one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 13, 2014 16:51:00 GMT
Yes i don't care a bit to answer any question for you. But the question is whether you will understand my answer.
Nothing against you personally but no very few sees my view point.
My answer is:
I could NOT imagine us believers having to endure to the very end of the 7 years which is the 2nd coming. I do not know how God would see us through it all and protect us from everything when we are so scattered around the world. The only ones i believe will be protected during that time is the ones of israel that flees into the wilderness and the 144,000 i do not know if these are the same or two different groups.
But i believe we only have to make it through about 3 and a half to 4 years from the start.
I believe:
Seals 1-3: are the beginning of sorrows but the end is not yet.
Seals 4-5: great tribulation and persecution
Seal 6: lights go out in heaven as Jesus comes with power and great glory and raptures we which are alive and remain.144,000 sealed
Seal 7: Jesus opens the 7th seal which begins the 1st trumpet and fire comes down from heaven while all believers are in heaven so his wrath can be poured out by trumpets and vials.
I do not believe any of us will be on this earth any longer past the 6th seal all that will be left will be unsaved lost people or the ones of Israel that come to him at the very end.
But Christians will be gone for at least a couple of years.
It would make no sense for us to have to go through the trumpets and vials.
Gods wrath is INSIDE the scroll that is sealed with 7 seals. Jesus has to open all the seals in order to reveal the wrath of trumpets and vials. With the breaking of each seal the pain gets worse just as in labor then at the 6th seal it is the greatest we are delivered and Israel flees into the wilderness to be protected. Then after the 7th seal is broken the scroll is opened and has nothing holding it shut.
The first trumpet fire comes down and destroys all grass and burns up a third of the trees. Big difference than the seals.
We are in heaven watching and at after all trumpets and vials are finished we come back with him to the battle of Armageddon.
My view is not much different than when i was a pre tribber only the timing of the rapture.
In order for me to still be a pre tribulationist then i have to believe that he comes secretly and gets us before any seal is broken.
Then i have to believe Jesus comes back sitting on a throne to catch away the great multitude at the 6th seal so they don't suffer his trumpets and vials.
Then again he must come back while sitting on the white horse.
Or ultimately to believe in the pre tribulation rapture again i need to ignore that the world sees him and hides from his face at the 6th seal.
I believe he is literally hovering over top of the world at the 6th seal while angels are gather his elect which are alive and remain which is us will be caught up to meet him in the air. While the rest of the world is scared to death knowing they have messed up killing his saints.
I believe the 144,000 see him also and this will make them repent after they mourn bitterly.
Then when he comes back at the very end the 144,000 will rejoice and celebrate when they see him coming back from the wedding because they know him now and they will only weep tears of joy.
If the 144,000 only mourn at the 2nd coming then how can they be sealed for 3 and a half years. When one is sealed they are saved.
Any more questions please ask.
|
|
|
|
Post by LS on Mar 13, 2014 17:08:13 GMT
My answer for you is (and this is just me speaking for myself): I have no idea what you're talking about.
You said:
That's obviously not the same God that I know.
Thank you once again for answering my question.
|
|
|
|
Post by elizabeth on Mar 13, 2014 17:17:02 GMT
Sweet T. we are a pretribulational site. We do not believe that we will be going through the rapture.
Regardless, Christians have been, and are being persecuted. Some die for their faith, because the Lord gives them the faith to persevere, and they are not escapists.
As you are so worried about the tribulation, and are not pleased with the way we look at things, I don't understand why you do not frequent post, or mid trib forums. They may be a better fit for you because I don't think you are going to find the answers you are looking for here.
You are welcome to stay, and maybe you would do well to read articles that are not rapture related for awhile.
I apologize if I am sounding abrupt, I don't mean to. I am just being honest, and trying to see things from your side. I am speaking for myself alone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweet T on Mar 13, 2014 17:31:57 GMT
You put me on trial just to try and get me to trip up once so you can discredit my words?
Reminds me of how the pharisees did Jesus all the time.
Yes God can protect any of us. In fact i may think God will protect me more than what your faith says.
You assume the only way God can be loving is pre tribulational?
He could protect us but he will not have to because we will be with him at that time.
I am NOT Jesus so you will be very able to trip me up all the time if that is your goal.
I tried. I spent much time caring for you and trying to warn you only to have you declare i must follow another God.
|
|
|
|
Post by elizabeth on Mar 13, 2014 17:40:49 GMT
Sweet T. God is loving, and true to His Word.
Whether the rapture is pre, mid or post, all the Christians will be there. We are part of His body.
Let's not argue about timing, we clearly are not going to agree. I know the Lord will protect all His saints, no one has need to fear.
|
|
|
|
Post by shiloh on Mar 13, 2014 19:05:00 GMT
Believe me when I say, NO ONE is trying to trip you up here, Sweet T.
I'm unclear as to when you believe the rapture will happen and believe me, our faith IS in Jesus alone.
It makes no sense to me for the church (saved by grace) to endure the Tribulation. That would be like us who have faith in Christ alone to go up just to come right back down in a nano-second.
I'm thinking of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 . We have to rightly divide the word or else, it all looks like mumbo jumbo.
If the bride of Christ has to endure the Tribulation, then you may as well say that our Lord and Saviour is a wife beater, which I adamantly disagree with.
He saved Noah and his family. He saved Lot. The church is the bride of Christ and we are seperate. He is our Lord and Saviour and He deals differently with the church/bride of Christ than He does Israel and the "nations". We are saved by grace through faith durig the church age.
All Scripture is profitable for us but not always TO us (as the church).
God said to Noah, "Come in".
God said to Lot, "Come out".
The Lord Jesus will say to the church, "Come up".
Come in, come out, come up.
|
|
|
|
Post by morningstar on Mar 13, 2014 20:24:30 GMT
Sweet T.... Evidently this issue seems to be very dear to you which is why you are very defensive when people point out the doctrinal errors. You say that no one understands what you are trying to point out..If you do not "Rightly Divide the Word of God" the results will be confusion, divisiveness, and frustration..maybe you should ponder on that for awhile. You seem to have a lot of zeal in what your trying to do to warn people, but at this point you are "preaching to the choir"...We are here to be a light and salt to an unbelieving world that is our mission, to share the Gospel to the unsaved not to change one's view on whether they are Pre-Mid-Post tribbers...Channel your zeal in the direction of the lost for their eternal Salvation and not on points of views which in itself is unprofitable. God Bless you Sweet T. I hope you reassess your motives, and your calling to see if they are truly from the Lord.
|
|
|
|
Post by Benjamin on Mar 13, 2014 22:07:12 GMT
No, I do not believe the 6th seal is the 2nd Coming.
The events of the sixth seal are just that: one of the seal judgements. They certainly sound dramatic, yes - and as a direct result of those judgements, the people of earth begin to realise that they are facing "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). This is significant because it is the first time that those remaining on earth acknowledge, and realise, that they are under God's judgement. Revelation contrasts this with chapter 7, which is an interlude of sorts, and is out of sync in the Revelation timeline (a flash-forward, if you will). Thus, when the people cry out "the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?", Revelation answers that question. The sealed of Israel can stand. The tribulation saints can stand.
After this flash-forward, Revelation returns to detailing God's judgements with the next series: the bowl judgements.
Now, to address a point you've made -
nobody in Revelation 6 claims to see God. What they've said is "hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb". This doesn't suggest that they literally see Christ; it suggests that they've become painfully aware that God is looking down on THEM in judgement.
As for the celestial events - this is what Jesus spoke of in Matthew (quoting Joel) and what Peter spoke of in Acts (again, quoting Joel), stating that these things would occur BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord.
That phrase, "Great and terrible day of the LORD", is a reference to the GREAT Tribulation (that is, the second half of the 7-year period).
This sixth seal judgement, then, occurs precisely when Scripture said it would. Prior to the midpoint of the Tribulation.
It's worth noting that even here, there is no mention whatsoever of the church. In fact, the church is strikingly absent from Revelation after chapter 5. The last time you see the church is in chapter 5, where we are represented by "elders"... and are ALREADY IN HEAVEN. You didn't address this at all in your responses... which is interesting.
Now, to a final point - and excuse me, while I put my moderator hat on. A quick note, first, though: I'd have done this privately, but given that you haven't actually signed up, and you're here as a guest, I have no way to do that. So...
[mod note:] If you've come here for open, honest discussion about these things, you've come to the right place. However, if you've come here to push a viewpoint without showing the respect of having an honest dialogue, then I have to warn you that you probably won't last very long here. Every single person on this site has come here because they have an honest love for the Lord. The very foundation of this site is a love of Bible-based teaching, and a desire to see the church return to the study of Scripture, through God's Holy Spirit, and to reclaim our first love, Jesus Christ - whom the church has (in large part) lost sight of.
This is who we are. This is what RaptureForum.net is all about.
If you have no desire to open God's Word in a way that is mutually respectful, mutually open, then there is no dialogue, and there will be no benefit to either party.
With that, I'd like to encourage you to do two things.
1) Stay, and
2) Have that dialogue with us. We don't have to agree on these things; there is no Biblical commandment to compromise on what we believe for one another - but we ARE commended to be Bereans. That means that your contributions here are valuable, provided they are Scriptural; likewise, though, it means that you need to remain open to the contributions of others. Your recent posts have a thread of resistance to that idea, but that is the very nature of RF.net, and is at the heart of all we do... so you'll either need to accept that, or perhaps move on. However, I'd love to see you stay, provided you can accept that this dialogue can and must go both ways.
|
|
