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Post by morningstar on Apr 22, 2014 16:17:45 GMT
I thought this article interesting because this is the first time I've heard "Fullness of the Gentile's" to be applied to the Tribulation. I don't agree with her view on this for several reasons. I believe the "Fullness of the Gentiles" applies to the dispensation of the Church age. The culmination of "Times of the Gentiles" as belonging to the end of the Tribulation. That's the way I've understood it, and the only way it makes sense to me, as God deals separately with the Church, and during the tribulation His focus is back on the redemption of Israel, and on Jerusalem. I guess this is what happens when people extend the Church dispensation into the Tribulation....The age of Grace is the Church age and ends at the Rapture. The 69th week of Daniel ended with the Crucifixion of Christ..(the church hadn't been born yet until Pentecost) God stopped the clock at this point, and will resume the final week (7 yrs) at the start of the Tribulation, therefore completing the 70 wks of Daniel as Prophesied.
Omega Letter:
By Wendy Wippel
Fullness of the Gentiles
Romans says an interesting thing about the tribulation: ''blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.'' Which begs at least two questions. What, exactly does "the fullness of the Gentiles mean? And when, exactly, will that fullness come in?
(I could say it comes in every Sunday afternoon, as we Gentile U.S. believers "buffet" our bodies after church. And I’m as guilty as anybody. But I digress.)
What, exactly, does the "fullness" of the Gentiles mean? The Greek word means to make complete, in the sense of both a numerical goal and as "to fill to the brim". Intriguingly, it's most often translated "fulfilled", e.g., in Matthew, as Matthew repeatedly declares that Jesus "fulfilled" old testament passages, both literally and in the "prophecies-by-analogy" otherwise known as 'types'.
Jesus filled those prophecies up to the brim.
So it would seem that the “fullness of the Gentiles" would be the tribulation salvation of the Gentiles, filled to the brim.
FULL ARTICLE
Fair Use for Discussion Purposes .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 16:56:24 GMT
Funny. (Though Sunday morning church gatherings aren't only in the US. Lol, I'll always reprimand people for looking at the US only.  ) Long article, though!  Lol, but thanks for sharing, Morningstar.
My thoughts on this? (As of yet) I see three options as to what the fullness of the Gentiles may be referring:
- former Gentiles that become part of the Church (which will be raptured before the final 7 years) + Gentiles saved during the tribulation (taking the "until" as literally until the very end);
- former Gentiles that become part of the Church (taking the "until" not as literally, but instead referring to 'until the start of the 7-year "process" of Israel's awakening', a.k.a. the start of Daniel's 70th week);
- Gentiles saved during the tribulation (not counting the Church age at all, but instead counting from the beginning of Daniel's 70th week until the very last Gentile saved during the tribulation).
Is this "fullness of the Gentiles" really a need for so much debate, though? I mean, in the end, the rapture will still happen before the start of Daniel's 70th week, and Israel will still only accept Jesus as the Messiah at the very end of Daniel's 70th week, when He comes down onto Mount Zion, as the Scriptures tell us.
I'd say the first option is the more accurate one, but it depends on how you want to describe things.
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Post by morningstar on Apr 22, 2014 17:25:49 GMT
I know it is a long article, but I think people can skim through it to get the gist of it. As far as debating the issue, that was not the purpose I posted this thread. But because I had never heard of this view, and just posted my thoughts on it. But the difference here is, that the "fullness of the Gentiles" is focused on the Church, the "Times of the Gentiles" is focused on the trampling down of Jerusalem and doesn't have anything to do with Salvation, and is referring to the fact that history shows that there has always been "Gentile Rule" i.e. Jerusalem has been trodden down by Gentiles as shown by the picture of Nebuchadnezzar's 4 kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Roman empire, and this Gentile rule will end at the End of the Tribulation when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom. I just thought it was an interesting article.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 17:37:47 GMT
Don't get me wrong, Morningstar, I agree that it's interesting to discuss Scripture. I've just seen people in the past almost going crazy over whether "fullness of the Gentiles" is referring to the Church or to tribulation believers. Or both. Do we have absolute indication that "fullness of the Gentiles" is referring to only the Church? I honestly could see it in any of those three possibilities I mentioned, even though I'm more inclined towards the first (the Church + Gentile tribulation believers), considering that Israel will only actually be fully healed of its "blindness" at the very end.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2014 18:02:33 GMT
I agree with your assessment, Morningstar. John, you're a little short of patience in understanding this morning, aren't you? lol. I do think it's important to understand. I did read that article earlier, Morningstar. Here's a Q&A from Jack Kelley's site about this. The Fullness Of The Gentilesgracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-fullness-of-the-gentiles-2/ |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 18:25:38 GMT
I'm not short on patience in understanding anyone's views. I just think it depends on your definition of "blindness." Jack's view is the same as this:
However, I would see the "blindness" as the blindness in having yet to realise that Jesus is the Messiah. Not the blindness as in turning back to God, because the Jewish people have been following the Jewish faith and Law even until today, or at least those that have not given up on the faith. They can't follow it to the full now because there is no Temple yet. But they will only realise and accept that Jesus is the Messiah when He comes back, which in my opinion that is what the "blindness" is referring to. The Lord already knows how many Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation, and when the last one is saved, that is when He will return and truly wake Israel up. |
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Post by shiloh on Apr 22, 2014 21:08:45 GMT
But, you have to be a Dispensationalist to fully understand where he's coming from. I'm a Dispensationalist. The church is a people set apart, where God takes a people unto Himself. That is the church, the age of grace. The blindness of Israel will not be lifted until "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". There's a set number that are part of the church and only the Lord knows that number. Those saved AFTER the Rapture are NOT part of the church. They had their chance. The age of grace will have ended with the Rapture.
Do you know what I mean? They will either be put to death or saved by the Lord to survive and repopulate during the Millennium. They will have to maintain their salvation versus the age of grace.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 21:43:52 GMT
I don't know or care about what dispensationalism is, but I care for the Word and I do know that the Church, tribulation believers and Israel are different groups of people.
However, the Church and tribulation believers have one thing in common, that they (for the most part at least) came from Gentile nations. Why can't "fullness of the Gentiles" count all the Gentiles, both those that are part of the Church, and those that will be part of the tribulation believers? Again, it depends on what your definition of "blindness" regarding Israel is, in my opinion at least. I don't really have anything else to offer to this particular topic, so I'll just leave it at that from my end. Different opinions, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 22:00:36 GMT
I suppose that when looking at the manner of salvation regarding the tribulation believers, and that they have to maintain that salvation due to it being the final "week" of the covenant of the Law as opposed to the covenant of Grace, then it would make sense that the "set number" for the Gentiles wouldn't be relying on tribulation believers. God still knows how many of them will be saved regardless, but... Well, I guess we will know for sure one day.
Speaking of that, though, then that means that tribulation believers will have to do animal sacrifices to make atonement for their sins?
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Post by morningstar on Apr 22, 2014 23:15:32 GMT
Shiloh, Jack Kelly explained it exactly as it shows in Scripture..and I totally agree with him.
BJ, The animal Sacrifices during the tribulation will be instituted by the orthodox Jews when they rebuild the temple by their own efforts , and is not a requirement of God Himself, for he sent His Son who was the Final Sacrifice...whereas the Tribulation believers both Jew & Gentile who believe in Jesus as the Messiah will not be partaking of Temple Sacrifices for they will know that Jesus was the total fulfillment. As far as maintaining their Salvation this means maintaining their belief in Christ and who He is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 23:23:48 GMT
I suppose that makes sense, Morningstar.
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Post by shiloh on Apr 23, 2014 0:22:17 GMT
Of COURSE it does, John!......lol 
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Lol, but thanks for sharing, Morningstar.
